High tech or low tech?

[Calamari]

I like all the late game units but I have a problem. High end units can't be retrained in many places. This has led me to the question of "Why get Venetian infantry when DFK are good and [relatively] low tech?"
I do merge wounded units but I can only do that for so long, especialy after a battle that hasn't gone very well.

Do high end units' effectivness offset this draw back.

[Wheem]

High end units can't be retrained in many places.

Use the high chivalry family member you mentioned in another thread to help grow settlements to large enough sizes that you can retrain your units

This has led me to the question of "Why get Venetian infantry when DFK are good and [relatively] low tech?"

Well, you can use both. Venetian Heavy Infantry will likely perform better against heavily armored opponents, and may be worthwhile to use over DFK in such cases (though you may need to march farther away in order to retrain them). Also, don't the Venetian Heavy Infantry have lower upkeep costs than DFKs? I'm not 100% sure...

I do merge wounded units but I can only do that for so long, especialy after a battle that hasn't gone very well.

I actually try to avoid doing that, especially if the units are highly experienced. Retraining them doesn't seem to dilute the experience very much, and it'd still be better to have 3 units with 1 silver chevron each, than 1 unit with 2 silver chevrons.

I really hate it when greatly weakened (but not destroyed) units get auto-consolidated after a battle.

Do high end units' effectivness offset this draw back.

When they're first becoming available - maybe.
Once more settlements have the availability for those units, it may become more of a "no brainer."
This is one reason I like the Danes so much, though; Viking Raiders are available from even tiny castles, but they're amazingly good units

[Calamari]

Thanks for the tips

[Xamt]

i keep two different and distinct roles for the units in my armies

1) those there to soak up most of the casualties and form my main battle line (usually cheap, low tech, value for money, defensive units)

2) those there to make the difference and win me the battle

it mostly comes down to microing your units and using the hammer and anvil technique... get the cheaper units to soak up the charge/tie down the enemy and then rush in with ur more expensive ones

examples (as byzantines):

1)trebizond and peasant archers (the later date heavily armored archers own solo ) - get your peasant archers in slightly in front of the trebizond ones, ai will shoot at the first unit in range... peasant archers will take most of the casualties, but who cares

2)vardariotai and skythicon: same as above, have skythicon move in first so they get shot at first while vardariotai come in for the kill taking low casualties but inflicting heavy ones

3) light and heavy cavalry: get light cavalry to tie down a unit or intercept a charging enemy (so that the unit being charged can avoid getting charged), then charge in with your heavy cavalry for the kill

4)spearmen/peasants/militia and varangian guard (or shock infantry): have the low tech cheap unit soak up the charging enemy (spear militias work best coz they wont auto rout after being charged by hvy cavalry) and then run in with your heavier and more tech advanced/costly unit

and yes - i do agree on retraining rather than merging experienced units, in the long run it makes a LOT of difference (had my own full stack silver chevroned army of vardariotai with armor upgrades when the mongols invaded)

[NobleNick]

...Also, don't the Venetian Heavy Infantry have lower upkeep costs than DFKs? I'm not 100% sure...

You are correct. DFK cost slightly less to buy (570, versus VHI 640), but cost much more to keep (225/turn, versus the VHI's 150/turn).

The cost of troops, 10 turns after building, is:

DFK = 570 + 2250 = 2820 = about 4 x 700
VHI = 640 + 1500 = 2140 = about 3 x 700

That means, if your troops last roughly 10 turns, a DFK units costs about 4/3 as much as a VHI. Said another way: you can have roughly 4 VHI or 3 DFK for the same money.

I know which I'd rather have.

[Calamari]

I was using VHI as an example realy, do most high end infantry work out cheaper in the long run?

Also, what about retraining? High tech units can't be retrained in so many places but are they still worth it when it comes to the fight and the campaign?

[Exarch]

u can merge wounded units?
like 2 units of dismounted feudal knights with like 23 and 30 men in each unit?

[Strom]

u can merge wounded units?
like 2 units of dismounted feudal knights with like 23 and 30 men in each unit?

Yes. In the campaign screen you select the army/garrison that they are in and then drag the wounded unit's portrait onto the portrait of the unit that you want it to merge with.

This is actually quite handy... If you have three units of base size 60 that took 15 casualties each in an army then you can either retrain all three units or you can drag one unit onto the other two, leaving you 2 full units and one unit with 15 guys, then retrain that one unit. This takes one third of the recruiting queue space, allowing you to retrain or recruit other units. It also (seems) to concentrate the most experienced guys in the unit that you're transferring from so they will sometimes increase their experience level when you do the transfer (I haven't noticed the destination unit dropping its experience level to match though.) Then they keep that new experience chevron when you retrain...

[Surgeon]

Actually, both the unit from which you transfer soldiers and the unit to which you transfer soldiers can get an experience boost provided the unit that you are transferring to has lower experience than the one being transferred from. If this isn't so, then the unit being transfered to might lose experience.
e.g.
30 soldiers with 2 gold chevrons + 50 soldiers with no chevrons = 20 soldiers with 3 gold chevrons + 60 soldiers with 2 bronze chevrons.
30 soldiers with 2 silver chevrons + 50 soldiers with 2 gold chevrons = 20 soldiers with 3 silver chevrons + 60 soldiers with 1 gold chevron.

[abhijeet_316]

hmm, i go wid low tech or mid tech units, and i feel dat even dey are prtty powerful IF u use dem sensibly, in my england campain i only used longbows wid armor upgrades till mid game and den upgrade to yeomen, and used mailed knights since dere isn't much diff stat wise btwn dem and d fuedal knights, only use high end infantry, d armourd swordsmen which jst cant seem to stay dead!! 1 unit took something lyk 25 casualties on d walls and had 20 casualties healed!!!!

remind me of deset axemen of rtw

[Gornard]

I usually use the best units available of every class in my armies, but i wonder if it would be better to have more cheaper units and just raise more armies?

[Xamt]

use cheaper units and raising more armies will work if u use auto-resolve with amazing effects... i.e. hordes of peasants killing the whole mongol horde with autoresolve (but when i say hordes, i mean hordes ....)

but hey... if you havent fought and beat mongols and timurids in the open then you havent won real battles

[Gornard]

well i try never to use auto resolve except for routine battles e.g. one group of rebel archers vs. entire stack

[Clodius]

The problem is when the hi-tech units are nerfed by low amour and weapon/formation bugs.

Historically the combination of Spanish tercio pikemen and arquebusiers/musketeers was unbeatable for 150 years - but in unmodded M2TW they get creamed by mid level units like DFKs and crossbowmen every time.

Having high-tech units that are recruited not from barracks or walls but from weird buildings like military academies also doesn't help as even conquerered enemy huge cities or citadels are unlikely to have them.

[Xamt]

Having high-tech units that are recruited not from barracks or walls but from weird buildings like military academies also doesn't help as even conquerered enemy huge cities or citadels are unlikely to have them.

hmmmm isnt this the point of a nation having a "unique" unit tho?? they have to have a special way of recruiting it (the turks get JHI from their town hall upgrades etc)... i do find tho that the ai is taking weird steps as to how he advances his settlements ... weird as in i would never go about it the way the ai does