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  1. #1

    Default Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    Sorry for the title, but I'm wholly confused. Basically some group or another decided that a research lab that is/might make mini black holes will not cause the earth's destruction. I dunno, but the whole 'making black holes' thing sounds pretty dubious, and I'd be pretty damn annoyed (among other things) if the news reported that the earth was going to get sucked into a black hole some bored scientists made over lunchbreak.

    Here's the article.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Earth 'not at risk' from collider By Paul Rincon
    Science reporter, BBC News

    Our planet is not at risk from the world's most powerful particle physics experiment, a report has concluded.

    The document addresses fears that the Large Hadron Collider is so energetic, it could have unforeseen consequences.

    Critics are worried that mini-black holes made at the soon-to-open facility on the French-Swiss border might threaten the Earth's very existence.

    But the report, issued the European Organization for Nuclear Research, says there is "no conceivable danger".

    The organization - known better by its French acronym, Cern - will operate the collider underground in a 27km-long tunnel near Geneva.

    This Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a powerful and complicated machine, which will smash together protons at super-fast speeds in a bid to unlock the secrets of the Universe.

    Six "detectors" - individual experiments - will count, trace and analyse the particles that emerge from the collisions.

    Most physicists believe the risk of a cataclysm lies in the realms of science fiction. But there have been fears about the possibility of a mini-black hole - produced in the collider - swelling so that it gobbles up the Earth.

    Critics have previously raised concerns that the production of weird hypothetical particles called strangelets in the LHC could trigger the mass conversion of nuclei in ordinary atoms into more strange matter - transforming the Earth into a hot, dead lump.

    New particles

    The lay language summary of the report, which has been written by Cern's top theorists, states: "Over the past billions of years, nature has already generated on Earth as many collisions as about a million LHC experiments - and the planet still exists."

    The report added: "There is no basis for any concerns about the consequences of new particles or forms of matter that could possibly be produced by the LHC."

    The new document is an update of the analysis carried out in 2003 into the safety of the collider by an independent team of scientists.

    The authors of the latest report, including theoretical physicist John Ellis, confirmed that black holes could be made by the collider. But they said: "If microscopic black holes were to be singly produced by colliding the quarks and gluons inside protons, they would also be able to decay into the same types of particles that produced them."

    The report added: "The expected lifetime [of a mini-black hole] would be very short."

    On the strangelet issue, the report says that these particles are even less likely to be produced at the LHC than in the lower-energy Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC) in New York, which has been operating since 2000.

    A previous battle over particle accelerator safety was fought over the US machine.

    'Fundamental question'

    The scientific consensus appears to be on the side of Cern's theorists.

    But in 2003, Dr Adrian Kent, a theoretical physicist at the University of Cambridge, wrote a paper in which he argued that scientists had not adequately calculated the risks of a "killer strangelet" catastrophe scenario.

    He also expressed concern that a fundamental question (how improbable does a cataclysm have to be to warrant proceeding with an experiment?) had never been seriously inspected.

    The LHC was due to switch on in 26 November 2007. The start-up has been postponed several times, however, and is currently scheduled for later this summer.

    The first delay was precipitated by an accident in March 2007 during stress testing of one of the LHC's "quadrupole" magnets.

    A statement carried on the Cern website from the US laboratory that provided the magnet stated that the equipment had experienced a "failure" when supporting structures "broke".

    It later emerged that the magnet had exploded in the tunnel, close to one of the LHC's most important detectors, prompting the the facility to be evacuated.

    In March, a complaint requesting an injunction against the LHC's switch-on was filed before the United States District Court for the District of Hawaii by seven plaintiffs.

    One of the plaintiffs had previously attempted to bring a similar injunction against the RHIC over safety concerns.

    Paul.Rincon-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk


    Can people explain this to me, please? I'm all for all sorts of scientific research and though I'm clueless at this sort of thing, I find it fascinating. Any help, laughs, and general wtf's would be much appreciated.

  2. #2
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    I think all a black hole is is a certain amount of matter compressed into a tiny point in space. However, although the mass is extremely dense and compressed, it still is the same amount of mass.

    So If you took a kilogram of matter and compressed it into a black hole, it wouldn't have any more gravitational pull than a kilogram of matter normally would.

    (not positive on this though)
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    Theyre basically afraid of the unknown. We have never directly observed a black hole (duh?) so we dont know how theyre created. People are now afraid that the large hadron collider that basically uses magnets to samsh particles at high speeds will somehow simulate the creation of black holes..Or strangelets which is a bit of a ridicolous theory. Scientists basically dont know what theyre doing so people are afraid.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    it's not that they dont know what theyre doing, but more like no one has done what theyre doing before, and so they expect surprises. A miniature black hole might be one of those things, but as i understand it, at that size it would be miniscule and perhaps last only an infintesimal amount of time.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    yeah - it'd disappear in nanoseconds due to Hawking Radiation, wouldn't it?
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  6. #6
    H.r.E.'s Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    if we would have larger black holes couldnt we just throw things into it and the heat in it would just burn it and absorb the CO² ?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    Hype and hysteria by those ignorant of the science involved. While the LHC will be creating higher energy densities than any particle collider before it, it's not new physics.

    Cosmic rays bombard every piece of matter in the universe all day every day, creating far FAR higher energy densities than the LHC could ever achieve, and happening on a scale the scientists at CERN can only dream of replicating.

    What the LHC does at CERN is make collide particle in a place were we can see what happens to them in detail. That's it.

    We know it won't destroy the earth, it's simply not possible. If we manage to make a black hole... it's going to be one with a mass, and this gravitational attraction, of your average atom or two. And will be far far below the threshold for sustainability. It will evaporate instantly.

  8. #8
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    A star daying and became a black hole ok that's threating...
    (a huge amount of mass concentrated into a single spot and having a gravity from which even the light could not escape...muhahahahaha...)

    Particles collisions becoming a black hole? Comm'on..........
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    What the LHC does at CERN is make collide particle in a place were we can see what happens to them in detail. That's it.
    This is the key. The theory that would support the creation of "mini-black holes," suggests that it is a common phenomonen that is occuring constantly. The point of the project is to be able to observe the process in action, if it does exist. So if these black holes are created in the lab, it will be like turing on a flashlight in a desert, nobody is going to notice.

  10. #10
    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=132162 We discussed this kind of thing in this thread.

    There is no danger at all of the Earth being destroyed by these 'mini black holes'. As many people have already said, even if a black hole was created, it would have the gravitational attraction of a single particle or two (i.e. nothing).

    These 'critics' ought to stop talking as if they know everything about complex particle physics and go and do something useful, like get a physics degree first!

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    I should add that the particle collider itself isn't the most interesting part of it. It's the detectors that are the key to the whole thing.

  12. #12
    Syron's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    As many people have already said, even if a black hole was created, it would have the gravitational attraction of a single particle or two (i.e. nothing).
    While i agree with the point about cosmic rays which does cast massive doubts on the cataclysm ideas, there is one thing that gets me about the usual play-downs about quantum black holes. These play-down explanations always come out with the idea that the black holes, if created, wouldn't last long enough to swallow more material and expand because of Hawking Radiation. Yeh, the same Hawking Radiation that hasn't been proven yet......
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  13. #13
    chris_uk_83's Avatar Physicist
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    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    While i agree with the point about cosmic rays which does cast massive doubts on the cataclysm ideas, there is one thing that gets me about the usual play-downs about quantum black holes. These play-down explanations always come out with the idea that the black holes, if created, wouldn't last long enough to swallow more material and expand because of Hawking Radiation. Yeh, the same Hawking Radiation that hasn't been proven yet......
    There's also no reason that they should swallow more material in the first place. Their gravitational attraction to anything else is so negligable that the nuclear strong force would way overpower any attraction on that scale.

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    Syron's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Black holes on earth? (wtf?!?)

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_uk_83 View Post
    There's also no reason that they should swallow more material in the first place. Their gravitational attraction to anything else is so negligable that the nuclear strong force would way overpower any attraction on that scale.
    Nuclear strong force interaction between what? If you mean nucleons in an atom the quantum black hole is trying to swallow, what about hydrogen?
    Last edited by Syron; June 26, 2008 at 09:39 AM.
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