!! this is not a flamewar !! topic-Orcs VS Men

[Glorfindel]

it's a fact that we ruined the other topic (i am talking about me and some other guys)

so we can say our opinions in this one to settle things once and for all
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i believe that everyone wants Quality Gondorian Soldiers better than common Orcs and it's most likely to be true because the quality troops of Gondor have Numenorean blood in them

in the Battle of Helm's Deep 2,000 Rohirim stood against 10,000 Uruks
though they would lose if help didn't come they fought really good and slayed many fearsome Uruk-Hai, so i think Uruks found their match on the blades of the Horse-Lords

Common Men, those with some military training, maybe can slay a common Orc but in my opinion can be slain too
Orcs are broad-shouldered ape-like race(Tolkien), and is, clearly, strong, so the Common Man-soldier=Common Orc i believe its true

a Man of Bree i think can be slain easily by an Orc
this proves it
"Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred, while the years have lengthened and the grass has grown.



so we can conlude the list below
1)Numenoreans
2)Numenorean Descendants Gondorian Soldiers
3)Uruks and Rohirim and maybe lesser Gondorian Troops
4)Common Men and Common Orcs
5)Goblins and Men of Bree

i think i am logical

[SilentLamb]

This may be off topic, but you have to remember it was 10,000 Uruks versus 2,000 Rohirrim behind a wall. It's easy to be brave behind a castle wall, and it's also easy to defend a castle wall against overwhelming numbers, especially when they have to come up 1 at a time via ladders.

Remember 300 (hate to use this), there numbers will count for nothing?

[Glorfindel]

basically there were 6,000 Greek hoplites with the Spartans

[SilentLamb]

basically there were 6,000 Greek hoplites with the Spartans

I thought the number was 700. Either way, they were still out numbered.

[Glorfindel]

my friend, i posted my opinion
it's healthy to argue

i want more comments on my list

[SilentLamb]

my friend, i posted my opinion
it's healthy to argue

i want more comments on my list

I gave my opinion too.

I think your list is logical, but I don't think ancestry has much to do with it at all. Or whose in your blood line.

It would come down to training, dedication, and equipment provided.

[The Big Red 1]

This may be off topic, but you have to remember it was 10,000 Uruks versus 2,000 Rohirrim behind a wall. It's easy to be brave behind a castle wall, and it's also easy to defend a castle wall against overwhelming numbers, especially when they have to come up 1 at a time via ladders.

Remember 300 (hate to use this), there numbers will count for nothing?

Remember there were 200 elves there. Elves make a big difference.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Hmm do we take the books or the movie version for what happened in Helm's deep. No elves on the books there from what I remember.

Also I had in mind foot soldiers for that list. Horse riding soldiers, now that requires some thought.

Oh and don't overestimate the abilities of elves, they weren't that good.

[Glorfindel]

Remember there were 200 elves there. Elves make a big difference

remember that in the movies there were ONLY 300 Rohirim in the Deep with the 200 elves, so even less soldiers

in the books 2,000 Rohirim without elves

[SilentLamb]

Remember there were 200 elves there. Elves make a big difference.

Not in the books apparently, which is what he was going by. If he was going by the movies, it would have been 300 men plus 200 elves versus 10,000 Uruk'Hai.

[Glorfindel]

i said that above

[SilentLamb]

i said that above

I can't keep up with you guys . You post back to back to fast.

[The Big Red 1]

Not in the books apparently, which is what he was going by. If he was going by the movies, it would have been 300 men plus 200 elves versus 10,000 Uruk'Hai.

Sorry I lost my two towers book and I've seen the movies soooo many times. I forgot.

[Iustinianos]

I posted this in the other thread as well:

1 Untrained Men vs. 1 Orc > Orc wins.
1 Trained Men vs. 1 Orc > Men wins.
1 Trained Men vs. 2 Orcs > 50/50.
1 Trained Men vs. 3 Orcs > Orcs win.

1 Untrained Men vs. 1 Uruk > Uruk wins.
1 Trained Men vs. 1 Uruk > Men wins.
1 Traned Men vs. 2 Uruks > Uruks win.

1 Untrained Men vs. 1 Uruk-Hai > Uruk Hai wins.
1 Trained Men vs. 1 Uruk Hai > 50/50.
1 Trained Men vs. 2 Uruk Hai > Uruk-Hai's win.

50 Untrained Men vs. 50 Orcs > Orcs win.
50 Trained Men vs. 50 Orcs > Men win.
50 Trained Men vs. 100 Orcs > 50/50
50 Trained Men vs. 150 Orcs > Orcs win.

50 Untrained Men vs. 50 Uruks > Uruks win.
50 Trained Men vs. 50 Uruks > 50/50.
50 Trained Men vs. 100 Uruks > Uruks win.

50 Untrained Men vs. 50 Uruk-Hai > Uruk-Hai win.
50 Trained Men vs. 50 Uruks > 50/50.
50 Trained Men vs. 100 Uruks > Uruks win.

Untrained Men= People who did not have military training and thus do not know how to use weapons and tactics in war. For example: Men of Bree, peasants from Rohan(militia like), etc.
Trained Men=People who did have military training and thus know how to use weapond and tactics in war. For example: Gondorian men, Rohirrim who's daily occupation is being a soldier, etc.

I think we can leave the Numenoreans out of this thread since they are not from the Third Age.

Battle of Helm's Deep does not show that the Rohirrim militia can defeat Uruks. In a open battle(without horses) the Rohirrim would fail against a force of Uruk-Hai, the same size.

[SilentLamb]

I posted this in the other thread as well:

1 Untrained Men vs. 1 Orc > Orc wins.
1 Trained Men vs. 1 Orc > Men wins.
1 Trained Men vs. 2 Orcs > 50/50.
1 Trained Men vs. 3 Orcs > Orcs win.

1 Untrained Men vs. 1 Uruk > Uruk wins.
1 Trained Men vs. 1 Uruk > Men wins.
1 Traned Men vs. 2 Uruks > Uruks win.

1 Untrained Men vs. 1 Uruk-Hai > Uruk Hai wins.
1 Trained Men vs. 1 Uruk Hai > 50/50.
1 Trained Men vs. 2 Uruk Hai > Uruk-Hai's win.

50 Untrained Men vs. 50 Orcs > Orcs win.
50 Trained Men vs. 50 Orcs > Men win.
50 Trained Men vs. 100 Orcs > 50/50
50 Trained Men vs. 150 Orcs > Orcs win.

50 Untrained Men vs. 50 Uruks > Uruks win.
50 Trained Men vs. 50 Uruks > 50/50.
50 Trained Men vs. 100 Uruks > Uruks win.

50 Untrained Men vs. 50 Uruk-Hai > Uruk-Hai win.
50 Trained Men vs. 50 Uruks > 50/50.
50 Trained Men vs. 100 Uruks > Uruks win.

Untrained Men= People who did not have military training and thus do not know how to use weapons and tactics in war. For example: Men of Bree, peasants from Rohan(militia like), etc.
Trained Men=People who did have military training and thus know how to use weapond and tactics in war. For example: Gondorian men, Rohirrim who's daily occupation is being a soldier, etc.

I think we can leave the Numenoreans out of this thread since they are not from the Third Age.

Battle of Helm's Deep does not show that the Rohirrim militia can defeat Uruks. In a open battle(without horses) the Rohirrim would fail against a force of Uruk-Hai, the same size.

Excellent list, I did enjoy it very much. Are Uruks'Hai that powerful though? I always imagined them being slightly stronger than regular Orcs, but I'm most likely wrong.

[Glorfindel]

Numenorean Rangers were in the third age

your list doesn't include specificaly all the factions so i can't agree or disagree because we don't know the list of the troops already and thus the terms trained and untrained are not very stable

and the tactical "matter" that you have concluding in your list is not doable i think (when you speak about more than one soldier)

say if you agree with my list please
if you disagree say were...

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Were they any "true" Numenoreans left in middle earth by the time the War of the Ring started? Perhaps the Ranger leftovers from Arnor and the Knights of Dol Amroth?

I would put Uruks above foot Rohirim units and lesser Gondorians.

[Glorfindel]

you forget that Boromir, one single soldier slew Uruk quite easily

Fighting alone, Boromir killed over 20 orcs-- including from Ugluk's entire legion of Uruk-hai-- and sent them all packing; Ugluk and Denethor alike indicate that even all of the Uruk-hai and other orcs together could not have defeated Boromir, if Ugluk had not returned while giving orders to shoot Boromir from a distance with arrows only

[Iustinianos]

Numenorean Ranger where Dunedain Rangers, descendants of Elendil who was a Numenorean. A Dunedain is not a Numenorean. The Rangers of Arnor would sooner be Arnorians(sp?) then Numenoreans.

Your list is pretty much ok . I'd only say that Uruk-Hai should be as strong as a Gondorian Soldier.

you forget that Boromir, one single soldier slew Uruk quite easily

Fighting alone, Boromir killed over 20 orcs-- including from Ugluk's entire legion of Uruk-hai-- and sent them all packing; Ugluk and Denethor alike indicate that even all of the Uruk-hai and other orcs together could not have defeated Boromir, if Ugluk had not returned while giving orders to shoot Boromir from a distance with arrows only

Boromir is an exception. He is not a basic Gondorian Soldier, more a Gondorian heavy-knight, plus he is son of the Steward and general of the Gondorian armies which would allow him to have 'quite' a military training.

[Glorfindel]

Numenorean Ranger where Dunedain Rangers, descendants of Elendil who was a Numenorean. A Dunedain is not a Numenorean. The Rangers of Arnor would sooner be Arnorians(sp?) then Numenoreans.

Your list is pretty much ok . I'd only say that Uruk-Hai should be as strong as a Gondorian Soldier.



Boromir is an exception. He is not a basic Gondorian Soldier, more a Gondorian heavy-knight, plus he is son of the Steward and general of the Gondorian armies which would allow him to have 'quite' a military training.

Meanwhile Aragorn indicates that he, Gimli and Legolas could have killed Ugluk's entire band of hundreds of Uruk-hai.

This is borne out by the fact that Legolas and Gimli alone killed 83 Uruk-hai between them in one night, while fighting numbers of over 20:1-- including mostly young boys and old men on their side

if you add this....?

ok, u will tell me again that they were the best soldiers
but Uruks didn't do much damage to them


Remember again the Riders of Eomer killing the entire Uruk Hai Warband, with loses maybe, but they won nonetheless
when i am saying Rohirim=Uruks i mean not just Rohirim Infantry but all the faction's troops as a majority