Why play the Byzantines over the Russians?

[Zwei-Gothic]

I see that the Byzantine Empire is very popular on these forums. Based on the unit selection, it looks like the Russians have it much better than the Byzes. I mean they both specialize in HA, and the Russians have a larger selection of them. The Russians also get great musketeers and the best cannon. What makes the Byzes so special? Aren't they gimped in the late period without technology? :hmmm:

[Mauzeer]

Byzantine is my faviorite vanilla campaign,havent played Russia tough.i've finished campaing before gunpowder took place(before timurids appeared).

[eggthief]

byzantines have better infantry though and people like them because they are the last bit left of the roman empire.

[Zwei-Gothic]

But from a military standpoint they just seem like a watered down version of Russia...

[eggthief]

But from a military standpoint they just seem like a watered down version of Russia...

the russians actually have an incredibly underrated roster compared to all other factions, they got strong cavalry including the strongest unit there is, their infantry is weak early on and ok later on, they have HA's and the dvors are very good units, they might have a slight weak start on ranged infantry, but the dismounted dvor makes up for it and cossack musketeers have a strong offence, cant recall which gunpowder artillery they get however but its sure as hell better than the byzantines bombard unit.

[Mithrane]

Firstly, my 3 favorite factions, in order, are Byzantium, England, and Russia. The reason Russia is last in that short list is as follows.

Firstly, they start out VERY weak. They have 1 city, that is it. To expand, they have to do a LOT of traveling. All of the territories they conquer are small and require a LOT of investment to get going.

Secondly, while they have similar unit roster to Byz to start, and while their end game units are FAR better in many regards, that is because it takes them SO long to get there. Byzantium can get to their end units VERY fast. In fact, Byzantium is a faction which excells at quickly taking out everyone else before they can get to their end game units. Russia takes a long time to get to their much vaunted (and rightly so) end game units.

Finally, Russia is far out in the middle of nowhere. The only sure conflicts they have are with the hordes from the east. You have to go looking for trouble, otherwise. Whereas Byzantium is in the financial, trade, and physical center of all the action. Crusades go through there, and are called for there. Catholics to the west, Muslims to the right, you can easily reach nearly every faction but the norse/english/scotts with but a 2 turn treck.

[Leutrim]

I see that the Byzantine Empire is very popular on these forums. Based on the unit selection, it looks like the Russians have it much better than the Byzes. I mean they both specialize in HA, and the Russians have a larger selection of them. The Russians also get great musketeers and the best cannon. What makes the Byzes so special? Aren't they gimped in the late period without technology? :hmmm:

What cannon do they have thats so good, isnt the serptine the best?

[eggthief]

Good argumented opinion I must say.

[Kennylz]

The fact that the Russians best units come late in the game, a time in the game where most players don't play long enough to reach along with an isolated starting position with crappy cities holds them back.

[Zwei-Gothic]

Well I started a Byzantine campaign for the hell of it just to see what all the hype is about. All I can say is that I'm amazed at how entertaining it is. I had my doubts about this faction (low selection of units, no gunpowder), but they really are something special.

Right now in my campaign, I'm almost exclusively diplomatic. I control 23 regions, but only 5 or 6 of them were actually taken by force. The only time I take a region is when I'm attacked first. Peace usually follows (except for the Venetians..). The russians gave me 2 regions in exchange only for trade rights! Everything else I've bought from other factions or taken them through peace treaties. I've never played it diplomatic (partly because in my experience its difficult to with the factions I like - HRE, France), and its pretty awesome to change it up so much like this. Props to Byzantium.

[clandestino]

Based on the unit selection, it looks like the Russians have it much better than the Byzes.

They have better late period cavalry units but Byz have a better overall army and more balanced roster, and with low pop growth of Russian provinces you have to wait for ages to get your hands on Dvor cavalry and Tsar's guard.

I mean they both specialize in HA, and the Russians have a larger selection of them.

Partialy correct cause Byz also have wery strong infantry units,foot archers and heavy cav so you can play with them like with western armies. And the selection is pretty similar altough Russian units are slightly better. On the other hand Byz have early acces to Vardariotai while Russians have to wait for ages to get Dvor cav which have slightly better stats.

What makes the Byzes so special?

Excellent position on the crossroad of the map, agressive neigbours on both west and east who attack you all the time, pleasure the fight against Mongols and Timurids... And as Orthodox both Catholics and Muslims hate your guts!!!

[AnthoniusII]

What makes byzantines spesial is the players curiosity!
Questions that bothers them are ...
1:Who were they?
2:Why did they were so diferent from any other faction?
3:Were realy romans?
4:Why they do not still exist like most of the factions in the game?
5:What if history was somehow diferent?
6:Was their armies so good and if yes why did they defeated?
The questions make byzantines so popular becouse they are one of the history's greatest mysteries!
Me and my team are trying to corect the vanilla komnenean armies rosters via our project here...
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=718
We will offer not only accurate units but also descriptions that will help players to learn about the units names and tasks and the byz officers mostly used ranks at that era!

[gambit]

I mostly don't like the Russians location. Cities are too spread out, dealing with rebels is a frakking pain. You're the first line of defense against the juggernaut Timurids...

Greece and Turkey however, make for excellent staging points and roleplaying.

[Theseus1234]

russia seems to have only one feature better than the Byzs...scratch that, two features

Dvors, both mounted and dismounted, they just rock
and
gunpowder (hmm cossack musketeers vs nothing...basilisk vs bombard...tough choice isnt it?)

[eggthief]

that might be true, but Mithrane gave some very good reasons on why to prefer the byzantines.

[Viking Prince]

Russia -- only faction to really experiance the wide open spaces untill after eliminating several factions. Almost as good as playing in Iberia with light cav!

[Kiljaden]

Zwei-Gothic:

So you wondered what the hype about the Byzantines was before you played them? That'll teach you to judge a faction before you play it

[Desperado †]

Aren't they gimped in the late period without technology? :hmmm:

I am sad about this. The Byzes atcually had very good technology (for their time) (after all, they guarded jelously the secret of greek fire). But by the time that cannons and muskets were actively in use (which was well past their glory days), they were to pressed on theyre borders and low on resources that they couldn't afford an investment into gunpowder which would probably not pay off until after they're demise. But, on TW you make your own rules. Should you make an empire, and keep it running easily, I think the chance for East Roman gunpowder should be included. But, as it is that Computer games aren't quite that developed, you must follow history, rather than History following you (to some extent). It is one of the things I am happiest about that in Empires, The game is morer reactive towards what you do. Should you burn down and exterminate the populace of Salzburg, chances are Mozart will not be born. If you halt a fast technological develepmont, it wont happen, though chances are it will be discovered later on in the game. It's a long way from the step on a Butterfly will change the future phenomenom, but It's the thing I look fowards to most in Empire's (yes, even more than the naval battles).