My next game: Epeiros as Pergamon

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm thinking ahead to my next game, once my massive Roman campaign is done, and for once it's not of "another Roman game". In my present game I've been having a lot of fun roleplaying out Pergamon as a Roman ally, rather than just another Roman province with Roman troops. So there's been a client ruler in the city for over 70 years, and it has two armies of regional troops and mercenaries, which I've used to great effect.

So for my next game, I want to play a migrated Epeiros campaign as the kingdom. I'll probably still do the whole business of trying to keep most factions relatively historical, though I might struggle a bit with Roman expansion.

Plan is thus; use Force Diplomacy to stay at peace with Koinon Hellenon and Makedonia, so that I can ignore my starting location for the most part. Or perhaps take the Illyrian coast initially for the money, and to give them to Rome later.

Otherwise it's focused on Asia Minor. Take Pergamon with a transported army as soon as possible, and start building it up. Then my targets are Halikarnassos, Ipsos, Sardis and Side to begin with. Take Galatia and give it to a Gallic faction. Byzantion might be a good early choice since it then stops anyone from Europe crossing into Asia Minor and vice-versa.

I'll probably be at war with the Seleukids (especially since they have Ipsos, Sarsis and Side) and Pontos for a goodly long while, any tips for facing them?

For armies, I've had good results with Classical hoplites as the rock in the centre of my line, possibly with some pike phalanxes in the very middle and them either side. Then Celto-Hellenic spearmen on the flanks, with peltasts on the wings. Kretan archers and Celtic slingers for long-ranged harrassment and enemy skirmisher-killing, and whatever mercenary cavalry I can get my hands on (preferably Thracian and Illyrian). Along with those brilliant Asian skirmishing horse.

I might take Byzantion as well, possibly try to recreate the Thracian Kingdom (expanding out from Byzantion).

Does this sound viable?

[delra]

You won't be able to get any decent phalanxes as Epeiros in Pergamon (AOR)...

The sanest army I can think of is a solid line of classical hoplites along with thracian units as flankers (they are recruitable in Asia Minor as Epeiros). You have thracian pelstats there with their insane swords, also good medium cavalry. Should be enough for flanking power. Especially after you get some chevrons. Some galatians might be priceless too.

Add to that some heavy mercenary cavalry (Thessalians?) and you're fine for most of the game. Classical hoplites + thracian peltasts can take any heavy phalanx out there without even getting tired. And phalanxes is what you will be fighting against most of the time.

Resign from archers, they are hardly ever useful against all the heavy stuff you're going to fight against and you can't really retrain them. I'd stay with thracian pelstats for most of the game as missile support for they are deadly.

On second thought, you could make a trip and create a colony in Crimea where you can train those awesome armoured archers. It's short way shipping them from there...

On strategic level, I advise using units you can retrain, you will be tight with cash for most of the game so housing depleted units might help a lot. Also, you could consider leaving your historic house rules for a while and really consider taking some places that might be very useful for you but weren't actually Pergamon's subjects back then. Like Rhodos (for slingers), Crete (for archers), Lesbos (to get rid of Makedonia), Crimea (for archers), Nikaia and Byzantion (to seal your lands from Greek incursions)...

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't use Kretans to attack the enemy line, they're brilliant for wiping out their skirmishers and anyone unarmoured (like annoying skirmisher cavalry). Especially for getting rid of their skirmishers before the lines close. Same goes the slingers.

Not fussed about lacking native phalanxes, I don't like them anyway. I've found a centre of one or two merc phalangites with lots of classical hoplites more than does the job. I'll be modelling those armies on the ones I've been using while roleplaying as Pergamon in my Roman game. Which usually means a phalanx in the centre, two classical hoplites either side, one Celto-hellenic Hoplites either side of them and Peltasts on the outside. Then archers behind the line, akontistai and slingers out front and whatever cavalry and other troops I can manage to fill it out.

[QuintusSertorius]

Got a strategy question to mull over, appreciate inputs.



In essense I've taken all the easy steals. For the moment I'm trying to avoid war with any other faction, at least til my economy is strong enough to support some armies. I need the trade for now.

If I go for Naissos, which was part of the historical Kingdom of Thrace, I put myself in the path of both the Getai and Makedonia. Neither have taken it, but they're both angling in that direction.

If I go for Mytilene, that throws the Makedonians at me. I could do it the subtle way - send spies to get it to revolt, then snap it up when it's rebel. I'm doing that already with Ipsos, which is flicking between revolt and some semblance of stability as a result of my spy.

Talking of which, Ipsos and Sardis are possibles, but I'd then be at war with the Seleukids. Until I've got a proper army in the region, I don't really want to risk that.

Ankyra is a possible, although I might then be over-extended and exposed to both Pontos and the Seleukids. I think for now it suits me that it's rebel, and has a massive stack there (courtesy of create_unit...).

And then there's Rhodos. In a way I think that might be a good steal, KH aren't brilliant at defending it, and it might weaken them enough to slow down their war against the Makedonians (which they're winning, again). Completes the island chain to Krete, and has that wonder that boosts sea trade.

So where do I go next?

[delra]

Cool, an interactive campaign.

Here goes my idea:

Keep Ankyra rebel or even better give it to Gauls, it will be a nice buffer and a place for AS and Pontos to lose their armies. It will keep Pontos off your back for sure. If you take it, you will have to keep half a stack there to defend the place. Not the most convenient solution.

About Ipsos and Sardis, if you have any of those, you will be at war with AS anyway, no matter what. But still, take them. They mean lots of cash (especially Sardis). Can finance your whole campaign.

I'd take Rhodos from KH to help them. They usually create a stack or two there who do nothing except using all their cash. Without it, they have better chance to keep Macedonia busy in actual Greece. It would give you nice slingers too.

Naissos is too far and out of your scope really. Better leave it than pay for having to defend it.

Mytilene would be best taken peacefully (bought maybe or exchanged for Naissos?) so your trade stays alive. If not, snatch it and FD peace with them anyway. They shouldn't start coming until they have Tylis or until Nikaia rebels to them. The place is completely out of their interest places.

For long run, you could consider Crimea as potential expansion region. It's easy to defend with phalanxes and good archers since Sauromatae come with quite obvious armies, they boost your trade, they give you great archers and they are Greek as much as you are.

Good luck.

[QuintusSertorius]

So far I've got Rhodos and Mytilene, they've massively boosted my cash with all that sea trade. Surprisingly, KH took a ceasefire without even using FD, though I did have to use it for Makedonia when I took Mytilene. Both are locked in a real stalemated war now, each with three provinces in Greece. Problem for both is that my old lands and Thermon have full stacks, so they can't really go that way.

I think you're right about Sardis, and if it's rich then even more reason to steal it. I'll need the money to support the army I'll need to keep the Seleukids off me.

[delra]

Sardis is one of those places with awesome mines... Not to mention huge trade and tax revenues. Probably the richest Asia Minor city. Take it and take Ipsos, give Ankyra to Arverni and keep defending yourself for next 500 turns. :-)

[QuintusSertorius]

Going a bit at a time seems to be working well here; I think Sardis for my first "Syrian War", Ipsos for the second. Unless the Seleukids start getting annoying.

[delra]

Yeah. When they come to annoy you, punish them with taking Sardis off them.

By the way, what happened to your awesome starting army? I can't believe one could just disband it?

[QuintusSertorius]

I disbanded the elephants straight away (before I even raided Pella). As I did my original navy. The phalanxes I never retrained. Illyrian spearmen got killed eventually. Rest got chewed up and I never replaced them.

I'm thinking given how the Ptolemies are winning in Syria, perhaps a raid to take Kypros off them first might be in order. Along with transporting some serious Seleukid power from the east back to Syria.

Then when the Seleukids have stabilised things there, I take Sardis.

[QuintusSertorius]

252BC and I'm holding for the moment:



The only faction I see a need to hurt right now are the rampant Ptolemies. Perhaps it's time to mount an assault on Side? Or perhaps just a raid (ie capture, destroy all buildings, leave) on Side and Tarsos? Possibly follow that with spies once it revolts back to the Ptolemies (or I give them back) to make them go rebel?

Starting to get thoughts of taking some distant locations while I'm chilling in my main location. Like Syrakousai, or Kyrene, or the Bosphorous. Would they be too hard to hold, given the distance?

[Salvor Hardin]

Well, Side looks like a good target to me: it is near to your holdings, you would hurt the Ptolemies and you would still have some buffer provinces with the Seleucids.

Historically speaking, the Attalids were quite focused in Asia Minor, so that would be accurate too.

[delra]

And you would add some Karians to your roster...

[QuintusSertorius]

Or more Karians. Already get them in Halikarnassos and Sardis.



Side was exactly what I did, as you both said, hurts the Ptolemies and surrounds Ipsos if the Seleukids get any ideas. Still preserves Galatia as a buffer between me and Pontos too.

I'm not sure I want to go much further west, though. I might try to make Kilikia rebel, but I don't want to hold it. And as you say, Salvor, not terribly realistic to keep heading east.

I'm also going for Naissos, which was part of the Kingdom of Thrace from whom Pergamon was a remnant. If I take that and Kallatis, I'll cover a lot of their historical holdings, bar Galatia and the Pontic holdings. More mines too.

I might also launch an expedition to the Chersonesus and add them. Better than letting them eventually rebel to the Koinon Hellenon as they always do when the Sauromatae take them and fail to hold them.

[QuintusSertorius]

Serious question; what's the best strategy for encouraging the AI to get off it's arse and build some proper armies to fight me? I can circumvent it by just using create_unit and spawning some if need be, but it's not as satisfying as them actually mobilising properly.



I just saw the Seleukids mobilise in my game - to try to take Ankyra. Not to attack me, who they've been at war with for almost five years, and lost numerous settlements to, but some rebels. Needless to say I won't turn down an offer of battle (plus I like rebel buffer zones), but it's not great.

Do I need to give the Seleukids money in the console? Just transport armies to me? Spawn troops in their settlements?

I'm also at war with the Ptolemies, but similarly they're not doing much. What do I need to do to give them a prod?

[icydawgfish]

What happened to not blitzing? You seem to be doing a pretty good job of it. As for the Ptolemies, perhaps you can use the move_character cheat to move some troops to the Ptolemaic frontier provinces.

[QuintusSertorius]

10 provinces in 30 years (120 turns) is blitzing?

[delra]

Of course not. If it was my game, I'd have Italy and Greece already and would be planning Egypt's fall. :-|