mongolian muslims

[wngpooniii]

this is not a big deal but, I dont think the mongols here muslims right?? If anything, they probably believed in their own pagan gods from Asia.

[Dave Scarface]

True, it would probably be better if I made them pagan instead. One of the things I never liked was how the mongols can join in on Jihads.

Dave

[Pode]

I know they converted to Islam, but I'm not sure of the timeline on that relative to their "appearance"

[vietanh797]

hey wait guys
I don't think mongol have any really believed god
there is only a tale about the great mother of mongol(a white wolf if you want to know)
nothing more in this time
after invasion in European and China(they conquered China) they attack us(Vietnam was known as Daiviet that time) and they lost all 3 times they came
then the China rebel against them and make them back to real mongol

[wngpooniii]

hey wait guys
I don't think mongol have any really believed god
there is only a tale about the great mother of mongol(a white wolf if you want to know)
nothing more in this time
after invasion in European and China(they conquered China) they attack us(Vietnam was known as Daiviet that time) and they lost all 3 times they came
then the China rebel against them and make them back to real mongol

did they lose relaly? I find that almost unbelievable, considering they beat every enemy that stand in their way. nothing from the chinese fortification, the middle eastern chemistry, or the european heavy armors stood a chance against them. veitnam was a vassal state to china for much of its history i believe, how the heck did they fend off the mongols? I guess because there's so much juggles there that their archers were not as effective?

[cfmonkey45]

Actually, they only won against the Muslims because they were able to score a key victory against the pompous Kwarazem Shah. In China, they had the home-field advantage of being able to raise armies directly from Inner and Outer Mongolia, whereas in extended campaigns, they had to repeatedly send for reinforcements and trek the silk road and other routes.

As for religion, they had numerous religions. Some were Muslim, most were pagan, others were Zoroastrian, and even some were Christian. Almost all of the sons of Ghengis Khan had at least one Christian wife, ones from the Naimans, who were a tribe of Christians in Outer Mongolia circa 1000-1300. Whatever their faith, it usually was only a side issue, a justification for ruthless slaughter, or simply just to maintain the support of the people.

The Mongolians, surprisingly, however, actually formed numerous alliances with the Crusaders in the Holy Land and attempted cooperative campaigns against the Muslim factions, however these endevours were mostly fruitless.

It doesn't surprise me that the mongols lost all three times, as they were stopped at the Carpathians by the Hungarians a few times, and they suffered from economic and political stagnation, something a hardened Total War veteran is very, very familiar with.

[vietanh797]

it isn't the point
we won because many things
not just by military power
because if depend in only military power they easily conquer most of nation which want a field battle with them
mongol tactic and marching army is best in the world that time nothing can stop them if you make field battle you can see that they won nearly all field battle they have with every nation even China can't stop them(the history of war in China is very long so thier tactic is powerful too)
but if you know that in tactic no european nation can match with asian nation that time(read some book and document written by some explorer they write some about this) most of tactic in asian born to make a weaker army can defeat a stronger so there are many trick
but tactic in european is born to conquer to make stronger be stronger
and besides Daiviet isn't really a vassal of China because we always defend china invasion so we can find out the way to stop enemy and make them suffer

[vietanh797]

p/s population in china is much more than mongol that time
this only because china face them in field battle where their cavalry can use all streng
the power of China depend on infantry(better in defend castle battle)
in history most of defeat battle of mongol is in siege battle

[Stylix]

Pursuing the ruler of Khwarazm to the west, one of Chingiz Khan's marshals devastated Azerbaijan and crushed the army of the Christian kingdom of Georgia near Tiflis in 1221. Crossing into the steppes north of the Caucasus Mountains, this Mongol army routed the Kipchak Turks, annihilated the princes of Russia in the battle of the Kalka in 1222, laid to waste parts of the Crimean Peninsula, and even advanced up the Volga River before returning east.

Kublai Khan brought Indo-China (Southeast Asia) under Mongol control by conquering Champa (southern Vietnam) in 1283, and securing the submission of Annam (northern Vietnam) in 1288, and that of Siam (Thailand) in 1294. The court of Khan-Balik sent an embassy to the Hindu kingdom of Khmer (Cambodia) in 1294, and the Mongols conquered Mien (Myanmar) in 1297. But the founder of the Hindu kingdom of Majapahit (Indonesia), Raden Vijaya, repulsed one of Kublai Khan's armies that landed in Java in 1292 under Chinese generals. Clearly, the Mongol rule in Southeast Asia was short-lived, and had rather temporary effects.

Saunders, John J. The History of the Mongol Conquests

[wngpooniii]

Pursuing the ruler of Khwarazm to the west, one of Chingiz Khan's marshals devastated Azerbaijan and crushed the army of the Christian kingdom of Georgia near Tiflis in 1221. Crossing into the steppes north of the Caucasus Mountains, this Mongol army routed the Kipchak Turks, annihilated the princes of Russia in the battle of the Kalka in 1222, laid to waste parts of the Crimean Peninsula, and even advanced up the Volga River before returning east.

Kublai Khan brought Indo-China (Southeast Asia) under Mongol control by conquering Champa (southern Vietnam) in 1283, and securing the submission of Annam (northern Vietnam) in 1288, and that of Siam (Thailand) in 1294. The court of Khan-Balik sent an embassy to the Hindu kingdom of Khmer (Cambodia) in 1294, and the Mongols conquered Mien (Myanmar) in 1297. But the founder of the Hindu kingdom of Majapahit (Indonesia), Raden Vijaya, repulsed one of Kublai Khan's armies that landed in Java in 1292 under Chinese generals. Clearly, the Mongol rule in Southeast Asia was short-lived, and had rather temporary effects.

Saunders, John J. The History of the Mongol Conquests

this sounds like exactly what i would expect from the mongols, theres no way the Vietnamese could fight them and win. and I have to agree that losing your capital, along with your land and kingdom, means losing the war. you might setup your government in exile, but your kingdom is still gone and your people are still suffering from the invaders. bottom line is though, the mongols were buttholes

[vietanh797]

this sounds like exactly what i would expect from the mongols, theres no way the Vietnamese could fight them and win. and I have to agree that losing your capital, along with your land and kingdom, means losing the war. you might setup your government in exile, but your kingdom is still gone and your people are still suffering from the invaders. bottom line is though, the mongols were buttholes

the Vietnam land not like in european
when King retreat
all people gone too and we take all food away with us
what mongol take from us is some castle with nobody inside,nothing inside
can you rule a land have no people?

[wngpooniii]

well going into retreat is the same as defeat is it not? i mean, if someone threaten to take your house, and you just leave your house and let that person take it, you have lost your home to him. right? the mongols probably did not find vietnam to be very valuable since, according to you, there was nothing there.

[vietanh797]

to hell with that
our king retreat to Hue then use this fighting style(same as which style we use in war with France and USA from 1945 to 1975 too)
we only attack small mongol army then retreat to jungle no way to their cavalry use in jungle
then we attack their food supply
no food, strange weather and ect how could they fight more
after that we make counter attack and kick their butt out

[Stylix]

@vietanh797

You are free to believe whatever the state tells you to believe if that is your desire. The rest of the world will believe in the true history.

[vietanh797]

oh do you think that lost capital is defeated?
many others say so but in real history(accient document was translated)we only retreat and use jungle as cover
Daiviet in that time is nearly all jungle and river
it isn't where cavalry can use all advantage
you can think than a army can march 250km/day now can only move at speed 80km/day there are too much river so they have too stop many times
then their fighting spirit gone
after being cut off food supply no army can continue fight

[RMSN NIKE]

Back to topic, Jebe and Subutai, pagans, led the army that chased the Shah in 1220s. The the Batu Khan army in 1440s was Islam, which became the Golden Horde Empire. Most Khanates were Muslim, with some minor conversion, except Yuan, became Buddha or Confucian, forgot which one.

Off topic, Shah's son, Jalal al-Din did defeat the Mongols a few time after became Shah himself before losing his head. The Mongols won most battles before the hight of their power, defeat of the South Song in China, until the loss due to the Kamikazes. No more conquest after that, except start of steady loss of territories for each Khanates.

[vietanh797]

but you must know that army isn't plesant
they can't farming
they only fighting and eat
if no one produce food and supply rout cut off no army can fight
it is a very powerful tactic in asia most of attack from China to us always defeat like that
in asia even you retreat it isn't lost we have a sentence that"one step back for three steps forward"

[pwf224]

If your argument is that the Vietnamese people won by having the Mongols leave eventually, then everyone won, since eventually the Mongols were reduced to their current state in Mongolia. Just because in the long run the Mongols left, does not mean you defeated them in the war. It only means you hid in the jungle long enough for them to realize it wasn't worth it, much like the French and Americans.

[vietanh797]

If your argument is that the Vietnamese people won by having the Mongols leave eventually, then everyone won, since eventually the Mongols were reduced to their current state in Mongolia. Just because in the long run the Mongols left, does not mean you defeated them in the war. It only means you hid in the jungle long enough for them to realize it wasn't worth it, much like the French and Americans.

oh god
you not read, did you?
we have an counter attack so this mean that we not only hide
beside there are 2 generals head of army invasion in Vietnam was killed in battle with us
2 of 3 generals this isn't bad men even european not have this much success
and this is why they want to invasion us that much(3 times)
p/s: in number our army only as 1/4 mongol army invade in Vietnam so there is noway to win in a field battle

[pwf224]

All of us counter-attacked in some form or another. The fact of the matter is, the Mongolian Empire didn't last that long and eventually fell apart. You did not defeat the Mongolians in battle as they took over your capital and apparently your country (if only temporarily). However, since this happened pretty much everywhere else, then the same thing can be said for any country. I fail to see the point you are making, and this thread is way off topic.

In regards to the main point, although it isn't historical to have Mongols be Muslim, it might improve gameplay by getting them involved in Jihads for the sake of conquest, to help them be aggressive and not passively occupying one or two regions on the edge of the map the whole game.