Gay brains

[boofhead]

I believe this has been established in the past, but here is yet more evidence shooting down the view that homosexuals have a choice regarding their sexuality, that they are somehow morally degenerate.

Gay men have similar brains to straight women, scientists claim

* Ian Sample, science correspondent
* guardian.co.uk,
* Monday June 16 2008
* Article history

Brain scans showing electrical activity according to sexuality

Brain scans showing electrical activity according to sexuality

Striking similarities between the brains of gay men and straight women have been discovered by neuroscientists, offering fresh evidence that sexual orientation is hardwired into our neural circuitry.

Scans reveal homosexual men and heterosexual women have symmetrical brains, with the right and left hemispheres almost exactly the same size. Conversely, lesbians and straight men have asymmetrical brains, with the right hemisphere significantly larger than the left.

Scientists at the prestigious Stockholm Brain Institute in Sweden also found certain brain circuits linked to emotional responses were the same in gay men and straight women.

The findings, published tomorrow in the US journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, suggest the biological factors that influence sexual orientation - such as exposure to testosterone in the womb - may also shape the brain's anatomy.

The study, led by the neurobiologist Ivanka Savic, builds on previous research that has identified differences in spatial and verbal abilities related to sex and sexual orientation. Tests have found gay men and straight women fare better at certain language tasks, while heterosexual men and lesbians tend to have better spatial awareness.

Savic and her colleague Per Linström took MRI brain scans of 90 volunteers who were divided into four groups of similar ages according to whether they were male, female, heterosexual or homosexual. The scans showed the right side of the brain in heterosexual men was typically 2% larger than the left. Lesbians showed a similar asymmetry, with the right hand side of the brain 1% larger than the left.

Scans on homosexual men and heterosexual women revealed both sides of the brain were the same size.

The results could explain a University of London study earlier this year that found gay men and straight women share a poor sense of direction compared with heterosexual men, and were more likely to navigate using landmarks alone.

The right hand side of the brain dominates spatial capabilities, so may be slightly more developed in heterosexual men and lesbians. An earlier study by the same team found gay men and straight women outperformed lesbians and straight men at tasks designed to test verbal fluency.

Savic's team has yet to confirm whether the differences in brain shape are responsible for sexual orientation, or are a consequence of it. To find out, they have begun another study to investigate brain symmetry in newborn babies, to see if it can be used to predict their future sexual orientation.

"These differences might be laid down during brain development in the womb, or they could happen after birth, though it could very likely be a combination of the two," said Savic.

In another series of tests, Savic and Lindström used a technique called positron emission tomography (PET) to look at brain wiring in a smaller group of volunteers. They found heterosexual women and gay men shared brain circuitry linking a region called the amygdala, which plays a key role in emotional responses, to other parts of the brain.

The research is part of a larger effort to identify differences between the male and female brain, in the hope they will shed light on why some mental disorders affect men and women differently. For example, major depressive disorders are far more common and persistent in women, while autism is around four times more common in boys than girls.

"There's a well known uneven sex distribution in the number of psychiatric disorders and trying to understand sex differences, and differences in orientation, may give you a hint of the mechanism underlying these diseases," said Savic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...d=networkfront

I guess this could equally go in the EMM (there'd be more responses), but I thought it would be more appropriate here.

It's about time individuals, groups, organisations, even certain nations STFU with their homosexual-hating rants.

[Exarch]

some ppl also register higher dopamine in their brain, yet they arent schizophrenic-interestingly, we're still not entirely sure how schizophrenia works, but anti-schizophrenic drugs tend to be dopamine antagonists.

[Syron]

Jesus Christ.

I hate all this bollocks, if there was one line of research i wouldn't mind being banned it is these fundamentally flawed studies on sexual orientation.

For a start these were small studies on isolated parts of the brain.

Second you have selection issues. The vast majority of "gay" people aren't out. You will have a certain kind of gay people that volunteer for these studies. Just because the people you are studying are gay doesn't mean the effects you observe are actually to do with their sexual orientation.

I mean look at this,

The results could explain a University of London study earlier this year that found gay men and straight women share a poor sense of direction compared with heterosexual men, and were more likely to navigate using landmarks alone.

Stereotyping much? Anyone with a shred of life experience will recognise this to be a load of nonsense.


These studies are if anything merely the result of cultural prejudice with the current societal perception that gays = girls, lesbians = boys and are not based on truth.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

What about macho type-A's who are gay?
Also, effeminate men who are straight have been accused of being gay.
But actually, I'd rather the world made this whole thing a non-issue. 200,000 kids died today, with bloated bellies and covered in flies.
Gays, stop being so self absorbed. The world doesn't revolve around you.
Straights, stop being so self righteous and focus on real issues.

[Syron]

So, gay men choose their sexuality?

I don't think so, but that has nothing to do with this or similar studies.

This is simply about trying to confirm the stereotype of gay = girl, lesbian = boy. Why do you even think they suggested using sexual orientation to help them learn about gender differences?

Personally, partaking in the man-love myself i don't think it is a choice. It could be something from birth or environmental such as early child-rearing. I don't know, don't particularly care either. I just take issue with studies that are so flawed because they are self-fullfilling prophesies.

Just because i don't agree with these stupid studies doesn't mean i agree with the religious nutjobs either. I don't care about the arguments over whether it's a "choice" or not as from my experience it clearly isn't. That doesn't mean i'm going to latch onto the first claim that would explain it, especially one so ill concieved.

I knew my brother was gay well before he even realized it himself.

We are all different. Was quite a shock to people when they found out when i was 19.

How do you explain this? Do you think it is not biological?

Probably is, probably some environmental effects. i don't particularly care. I just do care when stupid studies make claims based on flawed method that i am something i am not.

Arrrgh! Yes, I know some huge body-builder gay men. I would not mess with them at all in the aggro sense. But they are still gay. They look at men differently to what I do. They will seek a man, or allow themselves to be taken by a man, just like a woman does.

That's purely cultural. The whole "who's the man and the woman in the relationship?" nonsense that many straights (and plenty of gays) use to try and get over in their minds what is going on. Hey, just look at 50's and 60's gay porn and you'll see a huge difference in cultural stereotypes.

It doesn't make sense especially considering there are plenty of gay men who are exclusively "top" (the man if you prefer). How exactly are these men acting sexually like women? If anything it is just the same as how a straight guy looks at a woman.

Attitudes like gays having "poor spatial awareness" comes from the stereotype that gays can't play sport etc and even many gays take that for granted, and certainly the majority of "out" gays. But there are plenty of gay althletes and sportsmen, the only difference is they tend to be more closeted becuase of social attitudes. Take Mitcham for instance who is one of a handful of top sportspeople to be out. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-7753.html. These are precisely the sort of people these "studies" will miss and it gives an incredibly distorted picture.

This is the important element of seperating gay "culture" and gay sexual orientation.

[boofhead]

Jesus Christ.

I hate all this bollocks, if there was one line of research i wouldn't mind being banned it is these fundamentally flawed studies on sexual orientation.

For a start these were small studies on isolated parts of the brain.

Second you have selection issues. The vast majority of "gay" people aren't out. You will have a certain kind of gay people that volunteer for these studies. Just because the people you are studying are gay doesn't mean the effects you observe are actually to do with their sexual orientation.

I mean look at this,



Stereotyping much? Anyone with a shred of life experience will recognise this to be a load of nonsense.


These studies are if anything merely the result of cultural prejudice with the current societal perception that gays = girls, lesbians = boys and are not based on truth.

So, gay men choose their sexuality?

I knew my brother was gay well before he even realized it himself.

How do you explain this? Do you think it is not biological?

@Arrrgh! Yes, I know some huge body-builder gay men. I would not mess with them at all in the aggro sense. But they are still gay. They look at men differently to what I do. They will seek a man, or allow themselves to be taken by a man, just like a woman does.

[Pivra]

so gay...

[boofhead]

@Syron, it sounds to me like you are trying to say that investigation is pointless, or useless, or unnecessary.

Is this true? I mean, some people may have some curiosity over the issue and seek answers....you don't like this?

[Syron]

My problem is not with people who "wish to seek answers". It's with those who should know better, the people conducting the study.

Studies into sexual orientation are seriously flawed due to the self-selection process of "being out" in the first place. The sample population is already biased.

In modern western society the current predominant steretype is that sexual orientation is somehow more like the transexual where they're either men in a womans body (lesbians) or women in a mans body (gays). This means that the people more likely to identify with being gay or lesbian are the people that conform to these stereotypes. "normal" gay people will be pushed to the fringes. This means that the sample population in a sexual orientation study will be biased to the cultural stereotypes.

I have an issue with this as it is bad science used to back up said stereotypes that negatively affect "normal" gay people

[boofhead]

I have an issue with this as it is bad science used to back up said stereotypes that negatively affect "normal" gay people

And a 'normal' gay person is......a gay who doesn't act like a woman? A gay who acts like a normal man apart from the sex bit? My best mate was a guy who wore flanalette shirts, black jeans, loved death-metal etc, but was gay. You would never pick him unless the issue came up. Is this what you speak of?

Stereotyping men and women is not an exercise in 'gender bias'. There are many provable facts involved. Men and women are different, from brain structure to verbal and emotional use of expression. Nobody in their right mind would deny this. It is as plain as day.

I cannot see what is so wrong in stating a similarity between brain structure of gay men and women as a whole.

We know all foetuses start out as females, and that hormonal influence is needed to change the female to a male. We know that hermaphrodites are caused via an interruption to this process. We know of a man who always felt like a woman, and when they opened him up for the sex-change he had a non-functional uterus inside.

So what giant leap is needed for us to understand that hormones in the womb will effect sexual preference?

I mean, big deal. Honestly, Syron, I only think such studies will serve to further the cause of gay rights, not hinder them. They'll do more than Mardis Gras sex parades will, anyway.

[danzig]

I mean, big deal. Honestly, Syron, I only think such studies will serve to further the cause of gay rights, not hinder them. They'll do more than Mardis Gras sex parades will, anyway.

Or it could go opposite route where people think being gay is something to be cured in the womb like a birth defect as science advances. Ever see the movie Gattaca? Alot of people who believe homosexuality is wrong or immoral arent exactly going to care WHY someone is gay.

[Syron]

And a 'normal' gay person is......a gay who doesn't act like a woman? A gay who acts like a normal man apart from the sex bit? My best mate was a guy who wore flanalette shirts, black jeans, loved death-metal etc, but was gay. You would never pick him unless the issue came up. Is this what you speak of?

Sorry, i should be more diplomatic. By "normal" i mean those who don't conform to the gay steretype.

Stereotyping men and women is not an exercise in 'gender bias'. There are many provable facts involved. Men and women are different, from brain structure to verbal and emotional use of expression. Nobody in their right mind would deny this. It is as plain as day.

I don't deny that, my problem is with the method used to connect sexual orientation to this. Fact is in society at large gay =/= men who have sex with men. It has it's own connotations seperate from sex and that the "culture" celebrates a stereotype of opposing gender conventions.

Therefore using "gay" people to give an accurate account of homosexuality is never going to work. This study hypothesises that due to the cultural stereotype , gay men may be biologically like women. So it uses said steretype to confirm this.

This has nothing to do with sexual orientation!!!!

I cannot see what is so wrong in stating a similarity between brain structure of gay men and women as a whole.

a) because it's clearly wrong given the fact it compares areas of the brain that realistically won't be involved in sexual orientation. Changes in emotional activity will not change how one perceives men and women as sexual partners. We know through good science that such instincts are based in other areas of the brain like those dealing with our sense of smell. Saying that gay men have womens brains based on the above contradicts that entirely.

b) because studies that try to show it are clearly flawed.

c) the existence of "straight male brained" gays around shows it to be bollocks.

You dont seem to get it. This study was not looking at the areas of the brain related to sexuality but related to gender. It was saying gay men have womens brains apart from just in terms of sexual preference. Quite clearly there are plenty of gay men whose only difference from their straight counterparts is the sex of the person they bed. There doesn't have to be anything else diffferent. Clearly saying they have a female brain is absurd, the brain is far more than just about sexual attraction.

We know all foetuses start out as females, and that hormonal influence is needed to change the female to a male. We know that hermaphrodites are caused via an interruption to this process. We know of a man who always felt like a woman, and when they opened him up for the sex-change he had a non-functional uterus inside.

So what giant leap is needed for us to understand that hormones in the womb will effect sexual preference?

AND? Correlation =/= Causation. Just because something is possible doesn't make it the truth.

My problem with this study is that is does not actually target sexual orietation but those that identify with a particular identity which is a very different thing. As a result it is impossible to tell whether the correlation actually has anything to do with sexual orientation or something else.

What i'm saying can be expressed more simply than i have so far. Do you think a straight guy who is very camp has the brain of a man or a woman according to this study?

You see this study says he will have a "straight mans brain".

I mean, big deal. Honestly, Syron, I only think such studies will serve to further the cause of gay rights, not hinder them. They'll do more than Mardis Gras sex parades will, anyway.

I don't give a about gay rights!

I think this more than anything shows the entirely false nature of this "study". This shouldn't be about "gay rights" at all, it's mixing cultural and political with proper science.

What you are saying is that i should accept this nonsense simply because it is good politcally? Well sorry but i'm a scientist myself and i know pseudo-scientific when i see it.

If it is found that being gay is something decided in the womb, fine, don't care. But i'm not going to accept the results of science that is flawed and based on cultural prejudice.






In essence this is a problem with the fact "gay" and "homosexual" in many peoples minds are very different things.

[chris_uk_83]

I have to entirely agree with Syron on scientific grounds. This study is fundamentally scientifically flawed; not because it deals with the difference between sexual preference and gender, but because it's based on people.

It's incredibly difficult to carry out a truly scientific (therefore, reliable and repeatable) study which involves a populaiton of humans. You'd have to carry out the tests on every single human on the planet and they'd have to give you honest answers to every question. Neither of these things are ever going to happen. Once you begin to reduce your sample size to make the study doable you begin to exclude people from it. It's entirely possible that the people you exclude will have an effect on your result.

This is why sociology is bollocks and should never be considered a science

[Rush Limbaugh]

Were al bi. Its just where we lie on the scale that separates us. All men have their feminine side. I prefer not to allow entrance to mine however.

[Last Roman]

Were al bi. Its just where we lie on the scale that separates us. All men have their feminine side. I prefer not to allow entrance to mine however.

I say . there may be people who are bisexual, but that doesn't mean that we're all bisexual. I, for example, have no sexual interest in men. none. whatsoever.

you're either gay, bi or straight.

and having a "feminine" side does not make one bi.

[Gaidin]

I have to entirely agree with Syron on scientific grounds. This study is fundamentally scientifically flawed; not because it deals with the difference between sexual preference and gender, but because it's based on people.

It's incredibly difficult to carry out a truly scientific (therefore, reliable and repeatable) study which involves a populaiton of humans. You'd have to carry out the tests on every single human on the planet and they'd have to give you honest answers to every question. Neither of these things are ever going to happen. Once you begin to reduce your sample size to make the study doable you begin to exclude people from it. It's entirely possible that the people you exclude will have an effect on your result.

This is why sociology is bollocks and should never be considered a science

In there defense, 16th century science was much the same. Fields as different from each other as physics and anatomy/psychology tend to need different methods. Being a relatively new field, psychology doesn't have methods as hardened as physics yet.

Should they just stop then because the physicists don't like it?

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

Gay people in and of themselves aren't bad, in my opinion. However, the idea of Homosexuality itself is just a bit weird for me.


Scientifically, that seems sound, though.

[the Black Prince]

lol, fair enough Rush... you just don't know what you're missing out on...


I think Syron, and this study, are both right and wrong.

The study is wrong, IMO because it treats sexuality like sex. With but a very minority, everyone is either Male or Female. Its not the case to say that everyone is either Gay or Straight. Afterall, that alone goes nowhere to explaining bi people.

The research I did at uni, secondary and by no means truly scientific in nature, given that I was looking at issues of Law, Gender and Sexuality, seemed to indicate that sexuality is not a either/or question but a scale with straight and gay at opposite ends. That said, it doesn't take a scientist to realise that if your sample is limited to stereotypes, then the stereotype is almost certainly going to be proved correct.

The study only explains the opposite ends of the scale, where marked differential between gay and straight should be expected, and goes no place to explaining everyone in between.

The articles on this matter (the two i read were on BBC news and The Telegraph) both seemed to indicate that this study seemed to have discovered an effect rather than a cause.

Nobody seems to be saying that being gay is caused by this brain difference. I think this is key to remain. This difference, and sexuality both would seem to have the same linked cause. Going back to previous research, this study seems to enhance the case for differences in chemical levels experienced by foetus' in the womb as a cause for both gender, sex and sexuality. This two would reinforce the scale theory of sexuality, which of course goes as far back as Kinsey if not further.

Syron is right to highlight that these studies will never conclusively address the issues of sexuality while they filter participation through two small boxes - gay and straight. I really wonder what the results of this study would have been had a truly bisexual person (equal preferences for both sexes) been involved.

The stereotype of gays being effeminate and lesbians being butch is only true in at the most 50% of cases. There are many gay men who are exclusively "tops" who only penetrate and don't like being penetrated. There are gay soldiers, marines, body builders, athletes, etc etc etc. Where is their role in this stereotype?

Likewise there are plenty of feminine lesbians.


I think there is one thing this study does do, or helps to do, and that is put to death the absurd and ridiculous suggestion that being gay is a choice.

[Rush Limbaugh]

lol, fair enough Rush... you just don't know what you're missing out on...

Thats ok . Theres plenty of things Ill miss out on . But there may be something to having more of one chemical or another that pushes one along that scale in one direction or another. In fact its likely. The thing is though some people do choose to be gay or are fooled into believing they are gay. Were all really the same.

[Syron]

Were al bi. Its just where we lie on the scale that separates us. All men have their feminine side. I prefer not to allow entrance to mine however.

You just haven't had a good enough offer yet......

Nobody seems to be saying that being gay is caused by this brain difference. I think this is key to remain. This difference, and sexuality both would seem to have the same linked cause. Going back to previous research, this study seems to enhance the case for differences in chemical levels experienced by foetus' in the womb as a cause for both gender, sex and sexuality. This two would reinforce the scale theory of sexuality, which of course goes as far back as Kinsey if not further.

But it doesn't show that sexuality and "brain gender" are linked as i said! it shows that brain gender and stereotypes of sexual orientation are linked.

I absolutely agree with a kinsey style sliding scale but i cannot see how this "brain gender" can be indicative of sexual orientation when quite clearly brain gender wont be unform over all gay people.


I agree with the rest of what you say however.