Pikemen are killing me, help!

[Mikado]

Hey guys,

I'm having serious trouble dealing with pikemen (even the militia version)
as they are effective against everything, not just cavalry. Playing in the early era as France trying to take Brughes I was shocked to see 2 units of flemish pike annihilate my merc heavy swordsmen and every other unit I sent against them on the walls, despite being spread out only 2 ranks deep. Missile units like peasant archers or militia crossbows take a long time to kill them and meanwhile the spearmen trying to pin down the pikemen get skewered by the pikes. Using cav against them is suicidal. I tried hitting them in the flanks or rear but they turn there pikes on a dime and form what seems like a hedgehog formation, fighting multiple units at once with little difficulty. Considering how cheap these pikes are both in aquisition and in upkeep, they seem awfully effective, even overpowered.

I tried to fix this by doubling, tripling and even quadrupling all Pikemen attack delay, but the effect is unsatisfactory.
Reducing the attack factor isn't an option because several pike units have only 1 attack anyway.

Does anyone know of a way to fix the pikemen?

I read forcing the AI to keep its pikes in guard formation solves it, but
that requires modifying the formations file, and I don't know how to do that.

Any help appriciated.

(using SS 6.1 +BygIII +RR/RC mod)

[Theseus1234]

i think they are so overpowered now is because the secondary weapons were removed from their arsenal, so now they are forced to use pikes.

it sure would be nice if the pikemen werent so effective against infantry

[rob-a-dogg]

i think they are so overpowered now is because the secondary weapons were removed from their arsenal, so now they are forced to use pikes.

it sure would be nice if the pikemen werent so effective against infantry

why would they do that? it makes no sense only having 1 weapon ESPECIALY if your a pike man, what happens when the enemy gets passed the head of your pike? headbutt him?

[Gasoline]

If you give them back their second weapon they will be nearly useless again. If you use pikes in vanilla they would prefer their sword over their pike, making them more of a bad swordsmen unit than pike unit

[Sonny WiFiHr]

They are uber. Game is broken. In the hand of human they can defeat anything with minimal loses.I played Teutonc camp. (Kingdoms TW) and in vanilla game they are more balanced, they use primary weapon more than in Medieval 2 so in vanilla they are more "fixed" than in SS 6.1. Now if you want to defeat them in siege bring 6-10 units other inf. to beat one pikeman or use a lots of archers if you can penetrate the walls. In field battles they are not so much threat if you have good flankig units.Never attack with spearman once i had 6 spearmans (from all sides) against 1 Flamish pikemans and they lose and they can pine them down for few to 30 sec (your general is a factor).

[Fenix_120]

i think they are so overpowered now is because the secondary weapons were removed from their arsenal, so now they are forced to use pikes.

it sure would be nice if the pikemen werent so effective against infantry

infantry can be stabbed just as well as calvary, if not easier since they are holding still.

[Theseus1234]

infantry can be stabbed just as well as calvary, if not easier since they are holding still.

well the 2H sword was invented to counter pike formations, so at least some resistance to pikemen is needed from some units.

i think its a lot easier to hit cavalry than infantry because horses tend to be wider then people, and thus are bigger targets

[Vasquez]

well the 2H sword was invented to counter pike formations, so at least some resistance to pikemen is needed from some units.

i think its a lot easier to hit cavalry than infantry because horses tend to be wider then people, and thus are bigger targets

True. Try increasing 2-H sword units charge ability. Might help in breaking up Pike formations.

[Vasquez]

Try lowering their morale.

[nameless]

Is there anyway to make them equal to what pikemen/hoplites were in RTW?

I mean in that one they were strong on the front, always stood with pikes unless the guys got too close.

[Chief Astook]

use long range weapons, even cannons or greek firethrowers (tested firethrowers vs. swiss pikemen, result were scorched swissmen unable to mount an effective charge)

[Brewskii]

try using heavy sword or axe units.

[August]

Well.. to be honest it is extremely hard to beat any tough unit on the wall by scaling it.
I recall the bloodbath I had on my hands when I was trying to take the walls from Norman Knights(Sicily). After they butchered three of my assaulting units I eventually decided to just move on further into the castle, forcing Knights to come down to the ground where they were instantly trashed. from then on I decided that I will never try to take on wall defenders unless I have overwhelming advantage. It is far safer to take gates and break walls(with defenders on 'em, if possible).
And as the Pikemen go, hitting the rear with powerful charge, long range fire and artillery. Pretty sure that good number of javelinmen would do wonders as well. High dread general helps a bunch.
It's one of those "don't mess with me in melee" units. And yes, they are rather cheap, effective and reliable, but defensive unit for the most part. Which is what they actually were, historically speaking.
I mean, Alexander conquered the world with those... Use this wisdom of the greatest conqueror of the Ancient World: "Find a cheap unit in your roster, and spam it. You will rule the world." XD

[RollingWave]

it's a pain, in vinilla they're just terrible since they keep switching to sword. whach makes them worthless unless some stupid horsemans decide to impale himself on the pike before the infantry approachs

[Caesar Clivus]

Take pikemen out with ranged weapons. Or flank them. Or both!

[Brewskii]

mounted archer work well.

[Schweizergarde]

What's wrong with reinstating secondary weapon? Pikemen did use their swords to fight infantry that broke through the formation. They should be strong against cavalry and weak against infantry/missile.

[Caesar Clivus]

What's wrong with reinstating secondary weapon? Pikemen did use their swords to fight infantry that broke through the formation. They should be strong against cavalry and weak against infantry/missile.

Because with a secondary weapon present, the pikemen start using their swords 2 seconds after having gotten into combat, even when facing cavalry which makes them completely useless.

[Maniacal]

Because with a secondary weapon present, the pikemen start using their swords 2 seconds after having gotten into combat, even when facing cavalry which makes them completely useless.

^ that always annoyed me so much.

My scottish merc pikement in my english campaign suffered casaulties in the three battles I sued them in, but I havn't really been able to test pikement out. (Guess I'll play some custom battles).

[spanish_emperor]

try this. Haven't tested it but you never know if it can solve the problem with secondary weapons in pikemen

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88483