Unit Sizes

[DimeBagHo]

Following up on a suggestion from RedFox, here are some possible schemes for new unit sizes. The numbers are all based on the 'large' unit setting. The point is to make the trade-off between mass troops and elite troops more realistic, by limiting the number of elite troops that you can fit into a stack.

Scheme 1

The way things are now. Garrison and phalanx infantry get 120 men. Other non-phalanx infantry get 100. Peltasts get 100, but other missile units get 80. Cavalry get 50.

Scheme 2

Reduced sizes for elite units. Sames as Scheme 1 for units up to the level 3 (City Barracks), but higher level units get reduced sizes. Elite phalanx infantry, like the silver shields would get 96 men (divides by 8 giving a tidier formation). Elite non-phalanx infantry, like Hoplites, Hypaspists, Praetorians, East Legionaries, would get 80 men. Long range archers would get 60. Heavy cavalry would get 40.

Scheme 3

Severely reduced sizes for top level units. Level 5 infantry would either get 60 men, or 40 men and 2 hitpoints. Level 5 cavalry would get 32 men.

Notes:

-This doesn't include the Horse factions, but presumably they would also have their higher level units reduced in size - perhaps to 50 or 60 men.

-This doesn't include special units like chariots, but most of those would also see some reduction in size.

-For many higher level units reduced sizes would allow for better quality troops, and even lower costs in some cases. For example, East Legionaries and Hypaspists could be made comparable to legionaries in cost and quality, with the only disadvantage being the smaller unit size (80 vs 100).

[TM Is Back]

Why lower it Dime? Then the AI has even less strong units.

[RedFox]

I voted for the third option - it would work excellent if you set the recruitment into 5 different systems, instead of having upgradeable barracks that unlock new units. Each system would provide a different array of units.

#1 - Militia Barracks - only Levy Units
#2 - City Barracks - low level units only, no weak levies
#3 - Army Barracks - Regular good level infantry, few medium
#4 - Royal Barracks - Only good level infantry + royal infantry
#5 - Reform Barracks - Reformed infantry divisions + royal infantry

So, if the AI has an Army Barracks, it can only recruit lvl3 units like the player would, instead of cheaper militias.

[TM Is Back]

I voted for the third option - it would work excellent if you set the recruitment into 5 different systems, instead of having upgradeable barracks that unlock new units. Each system would provide a different array of units.

#1 - Militia Barracks - only Levy Units
#2 - City Barracks - low level units only, no weak levies
#3 - Army Barracks - Regular good level infantry, few medium
#4 - Royal Barracks - Only good level infantry + royal infantry
#5 - Reform Barracks - Reformed infantry divisions + royal infantry

So, if the AI has an Army Barracks, it can only recruit lvl3 units like the player would, instead of cheaper militias.

There is a problem on that RedFox. When the AI is out of money, or you are, then they cannot recruit any soldiers.

[DimeBagHo]

TM Is Back: You can see some of the discussion leading up to this here.

One potential problem with schemes (2) and (3) is that the AI might refuse to recruit elite units with smaller unit sizes.

However, we might be able to alleviate that problem by tweaking costs and stats to make elite units more attractive. The nice thing about reduced unit sizes is that, even if we cut the costs and boost the stats of elite infantry, they won't have an over-whelming advantage over regular units because, on the battlefield, regular units will have the advantage of numbers.

It also won't matter so much if the player fields elite units while the AI only fields regular units. The advantage of numbers will mean that going with regular units won't be such a bad choice for the AI to make.

[TM Is Back]

If only the player uses elite units and the AI the weaker units the game will get bored. Those militia will rout far more quickly then elites even though they have less units + fighting many stacks of peltasts/ phalangites is not very fun to do. It's far more fun to fight battles against Elite AI armies.

[Arcansson]

I vote for Scheme 1 with reducing numbers of theese uber HA armies...
I love XGM the way it is, sizes of units looks okay for me. Maybe you should just make phalanx units cheaper and force TSE to reucruit them.

[Balikedes]

I vote scheme two, I personally wouldn't want any drastic changes as I like XGM the way it is. I wouldn't want it to become like other mods out there with severe changes in unit sizes, a small change I think is cool though.

[zedestroyer]

I voted for scheme 2. But it should be applied to elite infantry and not top tier infantry. East Legionaries should not be included in the reduction, because they are already to weak, they are at the same level of Greek Thorikatai and the Roman Principes, but wile these can be trained before the Marian Reforms, the East Legionaries can only be trained after the reforms. I just say this because I was shocked when I saw the Armenian unit rooster. If you want to reduce East Legionaries numbers, it will be best to remove them of the game instead of crippling them even more. And reducing the number of men in the Armenian Cataphract Archers would be also a bad idea, because they are a essential unit to the Armenian army, they are a good counter against the huge Scythian horse archer units. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=171884

You should only reduce the Mod elite units and not the best units of each faction. You should target those killing machines, the units that are way stronger than the other units of the same type, like the Spartan units.
Armenia is only a example of a faction that should remain the same, without the addiction of new units, I think that Bactria can also maintain it's units intact, because they don't seem to have any very strong unit. Carthage can have it's Sacred Bands with reduced numbers.

[LucretiusTC]

This is a little bit tricky question, because it usually takes quite long time and money to have an access to those elite units in the first place. As we know the current Barracks system looks something like this: Barracks (600 € / 2 turns), Militia Barracks (2400 € / 3 turns), City Barracks (4800 € / 8 turns), Army Barracks (9600 € / 12 turns; tax income -10%) and Urban Barracks (12000 € / 16 turns; tax income -20%)...:hmmm:

I think I appreaciate the most of those elite units when I besiege a city with Stone Walls or better, and the enemy has a strong garrison behind those walls. Other cases when those elite units are worth of their paychecks is those crucial moments when the General had to shout something like "come back, cowards" in the heat of the battle. To me a Roman Triarii is an elite enough, it doesn´t have to be a Spartan Royal Guard...

About the unit sizes I don´t know if there is a need for drastic changes in the player´s point of view. Besides if there are long distances those elite units can be retrained and recruit only in some major settlements, not in small frontier towns...

Luc.

[Unknown Soldier]

I vote for 3 and totally agree with Redfox's scheme

[Kleomenis]

i voted option A. i agree with tm is back. besides it is more fun i guess the way it is now.

[Scutarii]

I voted two.... And possibly as a "phase". If people like it, maybe option 3 would be adopted later on.... Option two is kinda like an in the middle option, not severe, but still the same idea. I like the idea of reduced elite units, would probably help the AI as while they can create elite armies later on in the game (although not purely elite armie), they can't maintain them as they won't retrain on the BI and RTW exe's. So the reduced numbers of elites places less emphasis on them, and a bit more on taking regular or levy soldiers, as they are at less of a disadvantage due to their numbers. It sounds logical, we'll have to see if it works in practice.

[ServiusTheGreat]

change is evil

[CaesarVincens]

Change is the only reason you are playing XGM...

Anyway, I like option two as well. Having an equal number of men in the levies and elites is a bit unbalanced. If it doesn't work out, we just go back. These things are not irreversible.

[Spartan198]

I like option two.

[DimeBagHo]

I've run some tests with option (2) and the AI still seemed quite happy to recruit elite units.

[TM Is Back]

I've run some tests with option (2) and the AI still seemed quite happy to recruit elite units.

But does it recruit them more often then with option 1?

[Stilgar CG]

I am still exploring XGM, but so far no complains about the fundamentals of existing scheme: the access to elite units is still limited. In my compaigns I prefer training balanced armies and I am usually done with the most critical part before I have access to significant numbers of elite units. There are plenty of factors and practical reasons that stop a human player from training full stacks of elite units. To some extent, using the elite units more to the end of the game comes as a bonus, the cherry on top of the pie
Therefore, I see no reason to rush into Scheme 3 for now.

Scheme 2 makes more sense, as elite means quality, not quantity, indeed. And IF there is a lack of balance in what a human player can do with elite units or/and IF AI does not use them properly, then the corresponding issues should be addressed of course.

Edited: In line with what zedestroyer says, the best/elite units of small factions should be depleted with caution, if at all.

[RedFox]

By the way, in my observations of Rome, it rather seemed to me that AI didn't or rather couldn't assess unit sizes - it would often send 20 unit stacks, but with half depleted/half dead units.
So basically then, the AI is driven from cost effectiveness and the random aspect.