Efficiency of twohanded units???

[PeteSKTemplar]

Hi guys! I really would like to know how you are able to be satisfied with twohanded units like swordsmen and axemen. I dont mean halberds and pikes.
Ive just got mad when I sent against militia spearmen my berdiche axemen, they were one against one each and the outcome was crushing defeat. What is their purpose for then? They can be charged and crushed by cav. charge, they can be shooted down with any missile units with great ease, militias spearmen will crush them. What is the purpose to produce them then for you? I dont see any purpose. Only solution in my mind right now is to change their attack stats for their animation is too slow to be real killers as they were (like famous Varangian guard only defeatable by crossbows in history and of course by money.).:hmmm:

[TheColdTruth]

Two handed units are for charging the flanks and rear of the enemy who is already engaged with someone at their front. Try it you will see a huge difference.

[Santiago de Pola]

Yeah..as TCT said! Their are shock troops, and should be used for suprise attacks behind enemy formations and flanking!

Use them properly and they'll kick some behinds!

[PeteSKTemplar]

Well but even milita cavalry is good for that and is even faster and more easily produced. Thanks for reply though. I just dont like what I read about them in history and what I see in gameplay.

[PeteSKTemplar]

O.K. then. It seems that I shall give them a chance in fight one more time for flanking.

[Barser]

I agree with PeteSKTempler. My experience with these units has not been very positive. They also sucks at walls btw. Just beeing able to flank doesnt justifie this and they are usually expensive as well as being crap. Some cheap basic cavalry is better.

[Groenepuntmuts]

THEY LOOK COOL. that's they're purpose. zweihanders w00t!

[Barser]

THEY LOOK COOL. that's they're purpose. zweihanders w00t!

Yes they look cool and I love them. But it feels wrong when your zweihanders gets destroyed by spearmen.

They are volnurable to anything actually. I now it isn't realistic that big freaking axes and swords are better than shield and sword/spear but for the cost and looks of theese units.. Well just give me some braveheart damnit.

I don't care that much for realism.

[Point Blank]

If you are using RR and SSTC, the next update improves the balance of 2-handers. SSTC speeded up the attacks of most 1-handed units.

[Badg3r]

i agree, i think they need to have their attack drasticaly upped, along with their charge

btw if i wanted to do this my self, would i only have to open the right file in note pad (i forget the name, but i'll find it) and just type in their new attack?

[PeteSKTemplar]

i agree, i think they need to have their attack drasticaly upped, along with their charge

btw if i wanted to do this my self, would i only have to open the right file in note pad (i forget the name, but i'll find it) and just type in their new attack?

I already few times changed their attack value and I was satisfied after I increased their attack for 300 per cent. They finally ate those militias easily as I wanted. Problem occured that they were too strong against HC so more and more stats were to be changed and Ive got lost in it. Possible solutions would be either to increas attack rate of 2nd units or make them immune to disrupting atack of opponent (usually they have fine armour to be afraid of spear). I see it as an animation bug why they are the most unefficient cost/kills unit for me. Why they take crazy casualties from spears I think is in animation issue bcs spearmen hits at least twice as fast 2nd unit and cancels his attack which might be powerfull but doesnt occure.
I read that 2nd units were the best unit to counter pikes for they broke their formations, but thats impossible in M2TW. Either pikemen are too eager to use swords so any unit will destroy them or they use pikes only which cant be destroyed by any hand-to-hand weapon unlike 2nd greatsword would do in reality IMO.

[Point Blank]

Yes, its the export_descr_units.txt file.

[Badg3r]

ok thanks
so this is just the same as edditing unit stats on Rome right?

[FriendoftheDork]

I just ran a test, Zweihanders vs italian spear milita (best militia). I won easily, with the Zweihanders losing 6 men to 50 of the enemy before they broke.

So they don't seem completely broke to me. Just don't use them on the walls or recieving cavalry charges, and other infantry works better at holding the line. But charging spearmen? Looks fine for that to me.

[PeteSKTemplar]

I just ran a test, Zweihanders vs italian spear milita (best militia). I won easily, with the Zweihanders losing 6 men to 50 of the enemy before they broke.

So they don't seem completely broke to me. Just don't use them on the walls or recieving cavalry charges, and other infantry works better at holding the line. But charging spearmen? Looks fine for that to me.

I changed stats for bardiche axemen from 5 to 8 attack value as Zweihander has, than berdiche axemen killed militias spearmen handily. Too many twohanded weapons are bellow 8, I already started to change stats for 2handed units right now using 100 per cent increase. So far seems fine. They die still quickly but can take with them more than one of enemy (in case of face to face fight) now. Pity I dont know to make their animation faster or to delete at least those moves (animations) rendering courage but useless in battle (swinging with weapon above own head instead of the one of enemy).

Edit: my changing the stats failed for I cant start the game. I changed just attack values and armour, it seems strange to me why that happened.

[FriendoftheDork]

I changed stats for bardiche axemen from 5 to 8 attack value as Zweihander has, than berdiche axemen killed militias spearmen handily. Too many twohanded weapons are bellow 8, I already started to change stats for 2handed units right now using 100 per cent increase. So far seems fine. They die still quickly but can take with them more than one of enemy (in case of face to face fight) now. Pity I dont know to make their animation faster or to delete at least those moves (animations) rendering courage but useless in battle (swinging with weapon above own head instead of the one of enemy).

Edit: my changing the stats failed for I cant start the game. I changed just attack values and armour, it seems strange to me why that happened.

Berdiche axemen are not supposed to be that great anyway. They are cheap as dirt, and can take on militia spearmen. against better spearmen they would probably lose unless flanking.

That said I always had a unit of them in my Kievan Rus army, and although they suffered casualties they killed easily enough and got +3 xp. In any case they are expendable and do a better job against armoured foes than cheap spearmen.

[Schweizergarde]

From experience playing with RC, it seems like 2h units take high casualties and cause high casualties. Therefore try avoid sending them to prolonged melee.

If you do use 2h infantry to hold the line, I recommend you pull out the heavy cavalry early and try to route their opponents.

As to specifically axemen, I would only send those against highly armoured units. Spearmen with newest RC rely on shield, which isn't affected by AP.

[Wolfgrin]

Agreed, 2-hndrs are fairly disappointing in their present state. Historically, the secret to an axeman's success was the rapidity of his attack, which kept his foe off balance. And yes, 2-hnd swords were developed for breaking holes in pike formations. THe hand-and-a-half (or bastard) swords were better all around weapons.

I noticed that Icelandic axemen and Kievan Scandinavian Guard are supposed to be effective against cavalry. They're not.

As they are upper-tier units, they should be made more effective or replaced with properly advanced and truly devastating units.

[Theseus1234]

Agreed, 2-hndrs are fairly disappointing in their present state. Historically, the secret to an axeman's success was the rapidity of his attack, which kept his foe off balance.

so how do you change the attack animation speed? i was going to make the speed much faster, but lower the attack value

[PeteSKTemplar]

I doubled attack stats of twohanded units.
If anyone wants to try it here is a file but dont forget to backup original one (I mean SS not vanilla).

In case of berdiche I know they are cheap but it takes too long time to be able to have them so I wanted to make them worth of such long waiting.

Edit: now after several tests I see them perhaps too powerfull but at least its more like history says about such units, rather shoot them or charge them but no longer hand-to-hand combat against them.