Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
I personally believe that there is a time and a place for socialist economic policies like parts of the new deal, which helped america through the depression in the 30's. Most people, however, seem to have a pre-programmed aversion to any policy that could be considered socialist.
Thus I ask you: What are views on socialism and its place in american society?
Campidoctor
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
No
Comes Rei Militaris
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
Yes but in the mixed economic sense. Not in any way resembling communism and it should never ever reach European proportions.
according to exarch I am like
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Campidoctor
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
You mean like interventionism right?Yes but in the mixed economic sense.
ron :wub:in swanson
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
if society sees it fit, then yes.
Personally, however, I would not like to see full fledged socialism put in place.
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Comes Rei Militaris
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
yes interventionism, also with a nice mix of nationalism
according to exarch I am like
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Comes Limitis
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
Socialism in the form of social-democratic economics and decentralized, democratic-socialist socio-political structure has a place in America, and could really help it. In fact, our federal system could really be augmented if we integrated a more grassroots and decentralized form of social organization; put the power back in the hands of local councils and the citizenry.
But not communism. No single country should be communist in structure; that level of social development should only occur once the transition has been made to a single human nation, as putting it in place in a single country would lead to it being corrupted by foreign interests and selfish politicians, as the Soviet Union showed. Communism and anarcho-syndicalism is something that should only be implemented gradually and only when we are ready for it. And that won't be for a long time.
Last edited by MaximiIian; June 11, 2008 at 11:13 PM.
A bastion of sanity
Dux Limitis
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
Get your healthcare system socialized, at least. The bum on the street has as much right to healthcare as the business executive.
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
Will I do belive in helping the poor, the sick, the broken and the hurting:Originally Posted by boofhead
(1) I don't think it should be forced by the government
(2) I don't think it fixes the problem in anyway.
(3) We all are going to die at some point so no need to put the nation in debt because your not willing to kick the bucket even though your basically dead.
I have been in Iraq for a while and one thing i have seen is that when you give people stuff they didn't work for they don't care what happens to it because you will give them another. We give children pens, paper candy and toys (we give more valuble things too like shoes but it doesn't go strait to the kids). You want to know what happens after a few years of doing that? Children will pester you where every you go saying give me give me give me. Mobing you running up and stealing things off of you. The adult Iraqis are the same, always asking for stuff rarely working for it. I foolishly gave an Iraqi a flashlight on gaurd because he needed one. He lost it by the end of the day, and went searching through my pockets for another one.
We give their army all the vichles they could want you know what happens? They don't feel any need to take care of them because they will get a new one. We pull gaurd with them and you know what happens, they sleep on gaurd because they know we will protect them. We have a some what socail army medical system, you know what happens. People fill up lines with the stupidest problems wasting people time and keeping people that really need to check out out of line. I see so much going to waste all the time because of it.
The army is very socailistic. People don't care about equipment because they can always get new ones, people barely care about athority, because even though they may lose some money if they talk back to officers or NCO's it's not much, and they usually try to get trasfered to someone they like. I could list alot more problems with the armys solcailistic system, but i am not sure it's legal for me right now. What makes the U.S. army good, it that it is funded by a capitalistic system
The point is the beast of socailism is a haunting one, and if their is a day it comes to america the cost will change the face of ammerica dramatically to a point where I don't see hope for us to recover.
People should have the right to enjoy the fruits of their work, solcialism (in any form) steels that away and gives a lazy person. I do believe it is the job of charities and church's to heal the wounds of the less fortunate where it is freely given, not stolen.
Civis
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
Well with that kind of attitude, I know how to solve the poor person's problem without killing him. Kill you, and give the bum your money! It is a sad fact everyone will die but if you think that killing those less fortunate is the answer you are a sad being. That's like believing your god want's you to kill unbelievers just to forward them to their imminent judgment.
I wouldn't kill you faster in pity, why should you do the same to someone else? I think somebody needs a hug.
Praeses
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
Everyone talks about socialism in individual terms, when really it is a societal matter. The way I look at it is socialist programs are a product provided by the government. It costs money, but what you get in return is a stable society. If you read about the New Deal, Roosevelt was trying to keep the US from going into a revolution like those in Russia, China, Germany, Italy etc. The New Deal policies didn't really improve the economy of the US, but they quellled unrest to a great extent.
You can complain all you want about the inefficiencies and high costs of programs like Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, but they provide a stability that private enterprise cannot.
Libertus
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
How do you explain then the fact that socialism is working perfectly well in Sweden?
My answer to the same question would be: because the people are more mature as citizens, and have a greater sense of respect of their country.
No political system would work better than not-well without the people loving their country and having a sense of social justice in their everyday lives. In America, my opinion is that there is a good way to go on that, since the 'dog eat dog' motto sadly applies greatly, and a selfish way of living and thinking is promoted by the media and Hollywood.
Be what you want to be seeing in the world.
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
1. I haven't researched sweeden, or any other nation. My problem is that it's fundimentally stealing. People deserve the fruits of their work and should share that of their own free will, not have it stolen from them.
2. it's not dog eat dog, it's just saying charities are the better way to go. Look at the billions that america is giving away to the rest of the world by charities. You have a poor undertsanding of america if you ythink thats we are that imature comp...gtg mission
Ordinarius
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
In order to actually have universal health care payment should be required. The benefits of having universal health care is that it actually cheaper for everyone. It becomes cheaper for a number of reasons. One of them being that diseases and their spread are monitored and there are easy access health records that exists.
Not having some people pay would rise up charges for everyone else and that is a no no.It kind of sucks that the government spends the most per capita on health care but then you know the rest .
Time for bed..
Trouvère
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
It seems to me that to a lot of Americans, the word "Socialism" is unavoidably linked with Marxism, and thus with communism and thus with Stalinism/Maoism/Trotskism/Castroism/...
While there is a connection at the root with Marxism and the term "socialism" has been used in a very wide sense (from "national socialism" to "Soviet socialist states"), socialism as most Europeans perceive it is entirely different from totalitarian communism.
I think that is why American policymakers past (e.g. Roosevelt) and present (e.g. Obama) always avoid using typically "socialist" vocabulary (solidarity, social reforms, etc.) even when imposing "socialist" laws and doctrines. While some American politics may be socialist in character (although certainly to a lesser extent than in Europe), every nominal association with "socialism" is tainted and should therefore be avoided.
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
This is a good argument.In order to actually have universal health care payment should be required. The benefits of having universal health care is that it actually cheaper for everyone. It becomes cheaper for a number of reasons. One of them being that diseases and their spread are monitored and there are easy access health records that exists.
It may be cheeper, and I am no expert on this, my wife, on her way to becoming a doctor, says everything she's seen on it is the opposite because of waste. Also, is also, from what I have heard, decreases what the doctors get payed which is not fair for them, who did all the work in a hard field, payed for medschool, and had the grades to get there. It's huge sacrifice, and doctors deserve to have the money they get for the work they do. Another problems is the long lines because you will have people abusing the system for stupid problems(the only way to avoid that is to higher more doctors and build more hospidals which in that system would increase taxes all the more). I do like the idea of more orginized health care but that can happen w/o solcialist health care.
And you still have to problem of of taking property(money or land to build hospidals) from one person who worked for that property and giving them to another person who didn't work for it. I don't think public health care falls under a right but a privlage. Should you take property which is a right for a privlage? I think not. It's irresponcible government if the goverments job is to protect rights and when they are posible give privalages, i.e. letting people use roads which should be made to allow the govermnet to more properly protect the people when they are not needed by the government.
"I am moved by a love that moves the heavens, and the furthest stars.".
-John M. N. Reynolds
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
I realise I'm jumping in on a raging debate with my first post here so I'll keep this short and to the point.
You've misled the house on both of the above points there. I'm not coming down on either side of the debate here because I think that there can be no answer until it is attempted in practice and not just in theory, but I think this point in particular needs to be clarified.
In the United Kingdom, NHS doctors are actually offered much more lucrative contracts than they probably deserve in order to spirit them away from private hospitals. This is especially the case with GPs, who get paid a hell of a lot and still complain about the hours they work and the rate of pay.
I'd like to see your evidence for the second bolded point above as well. I've never experienced an unnecessarily long wait at a hospital or local medical centre/GP surgery due to people going in with stupid complaints. Just because it's free at the point of use doesn't mean that people go and play it for all that they can get. On the contrary, most people would rather not see the inside of a hospital in their entire life if they can help it and probably sometimes stay away when they should perhaps go. People who call an ambulance for certain problems are just fobbed off with advice over the phone anyway, so it's really not that much of a problem.
All academic anyway unless the United States is overtaken with the same furvour of collectivism seen in Europe from the 1920s to the 1950s.
Libertus
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
In socialist countries you don't 'pay for medschool', you get financed to study in medschool, or any other university in fact. I live in Greece, which isn't even a socialist country, and yet going to the university is totally free for n+4 years, n=the normal years required to finish the specific university, so in medschool it would be something like 7, depending on the specialty. Also, all the books you're gonna need are given to you for free throughout all your studies. Also, you get 3 meals per day for free in the university. Also, few people that come from very poor families can even have free accomodation in some universities. And all that goes for all the universities, in all of Greece, and we're not even a socialist country. This means that the ones who go to the university are the people who did well in highschool and had good results in the national exams at the end of high school, not every brat with a rich dad. So now I ask you: which is better?
I do agree that in a country without citizens with a sense of responsibility socialism produces more waste than good. But I think you can't argue that there is anything better than it, if only people do decide that they bloody love their country and would like to see it become a better place for everyone. As it happens in reality actually in countries like Sweden, so that we can't be lazy and claim that 'this will never happen' or have other defeatist approaches like that.
Be what you want to be seeing in the world.
Protector Domesticus
Re: Socialism, does it have a place in American society?
Unfortunately for us in Lower Middle class to Working class reality, the Mantra of 'Work hard' rarely cuts it. The Job market is getting slimmer and slimmer. People sometimes have to stick with a bad job with little pay and little benefits just to stay afloat, rather then take the risk and opt for a better paying Job.
'Rugged Individualism', as Boneheaded a concept as it was is now especially untenable. As It becomes harder and harder for blue-collar wages to pay the Bills and fill the car with gas, Companies move more and more jobs overseas. Rugged Individualism is at complete odds with Globalization.
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