Will the Western European leaders sell Eastern to the Russians?

[Philos Sophos]

Well,I think that they will because they don't care about us...it will be another Yalta

[gaius valerius]

Well,I think that they will because they don't care about us...it will be another Yalta

What exactly is this 'Eastern' you speak of? Eastern Europe? The Middle-East? Ukraïne and the Caucasian region?

[Philos Sophos]

What do you think...of course Eastern Europe...did they sell out middle east to the Russians in Yalta?

[jman47]

and may i see a source for why you believe a second yalta is upon us? i personally dont think eastern europe is gonna change anytime soon. maybe the balkans, but thats the only place in europe that i believe is unstable enough for changes.

[gaius valerius]

As in Eastern Europe which is today PART OF THE FRIGGIN UNION??? Do you even know what that means? Do you think we'll abandon you? How?????? You are institutionally tied to the EU? It is almost impossible to get out? You guys are pretty much safe. Do you actually BELIEVE that the EU would take the Eastern European countries in the union to let them fall later on??

Plz highlight what you mean exactly by 'selling you out'?


Personally I can't see any reason as to why we would let you fall? We have a) no reason and b)... no reason...

[Markas]

What do you think...of course Eastern Europe...did they sell out middle east to the Russians in Yalta?

As you undoubtedly know it was Roosevelt's poor judgement of uncle Joe that sold out eastern europe to stalin, not western europe that was pretty much a junior partner by this time.

[Philos Sophos]

Well...what would you do if Russia would attack us?Come to help us?

[gaius valerius]

Well...what would you do if Russia would attack us?Come to help us?

Duh, you're part of the EU. And NATO. What would all these institutions be if we wouldn't come to your aid?

[Philos Sophos]

It is politically necessary to have the EE in NATO and EU or we couldnt listen to your talk...Western Europe only cares about theirselves

[gaius valerius]

It is politically necessary to have the EE in NATO and EU or we couldnt listen to your talk...Western Europe only cares about theirselves

Thats why we let you in the EU? Because all we care about is ourselves? :hmmm: EU = European Union... Eastern Europe = part of Europe... thus... logically I see no problem...


I don't see from were your concerns come?

[Philos Sophos]

Well...the gas pipe kinda worries me...and Putins visit to France and Germany...

[gaius valerius]

Well...the gas pipe kinda worries me...and Putins visit to France and Germany...

You mean the gaspipe the Germans build through the Baltic to avoid Poland? Well true, but that isn't something to worry about that much. Poland at the time wasn't exactly a constructive member of the EU. Her probems with Russia caused trouble with the energy supply, to prevent economic damage the Germans opted for a new - rather expensive - pipeline. I agree, this isn't exactly an act of companionship and Poland was kinda aggrieved by it. The pipeline will still be build but you might not now this, but in the Reform Treaty there is a special clausule, I don't recall exactly what it stated, but it comes down to this: in case of problems regarding the European energysupply (guess aimed at who) the members of the union - regardles of whether or not they are building an extra pipeline - will stick together as one: all for one.

So there are institutional barriers to prevent any country from falling out off the boat.


Further more the relation between the EU and Russia - despite appearances - is at best... chilly.

[cegorach]

Tiberius Octavius Ulpianus vbmenu_register("postmenu_3168030", true);
Yesterday, 11:11 PM / Will the Western European leaders sell Eastern to the Russians? #1

Freeman

Posts: 497


Well,I think that they will because they don't care about us...it will be another Yalta



What ?

Are you joking ?



How much security do you really need to feel safe.

Surely the NATO wouldn't have time to react on the ground before Estonia is overrun in case of unlikely (not for another generation) Russian invasion of your country, but that is what the Estonian doctrine assumes.

Obviously Estonia would be saved and Russia would be defeated so no worries.

To have Yalta you need a band of fools one one side and a very clear advantage on the other - which simply is not the case.

Have a beer and relax, you are safe.

You mean the gaspipe the Germans build through the Baltic to avoid Poland? Well true, but that isn't something to worry about that much. Poland at the time wasn't exactly a constructive member of the EU. Her probems with Russia caused trouble with the energy supply, to prevent economic damage the Germans opted for a new - rather expensive - pipeline. I agree, this isn't exactly an act of companionship and Poland was kinda aggrieved by it.

Exactly as above - you must be kidding here.

Tell me what exactly was the case with energy supply - date, please.


Not like it wasn't Mr.Schroeder who signed the deal with the company he is working for right now, not at all, never...

@Tiwaz


As said, Poland has not been very constructive member. Add to this letting USA play it's dividing game with EU in exchange for dollars and you have to question if western parts are all that eager to pitch in if east starts to need more help.

Not again Tiwaz...

A double nonsense too - better than usual.

Yes, yes blam Poland even if it is Kremlin games with Belorus and Ukraine which caused power shortages. Typical.

About euroatlantic politics it is even more obvious except most desperate USA haters, EU supremacists and Putin lovers.


Since I was discussing that in details in the past nothing more is necessary.

[Tiwaz]

Not again Tiwaz...

A double nonsense too - better than usual.

Yes, yes blam Poland even if it is Kremlin games with Belorus and Ukraine which caused power shortages. Typical.

About euroatlantic politics it is even more obvious except most desperate USA haters, EU supremacists and Putin lovers.


Since I was discussing that in details in the past nothing more is necessary.

Did I speak of energy things? Not that I remember. Of course could be wrong.

I was pointing out to EE nations getting all comfy and letting USA pull them by the nose against EU interests (and in long term against their own interests) when some cash was being ruffled under their noses.

Western Europe is finally getting it's act together and starting to form force to drive EUROPEAN interests at home and abroad. As this is dangerous competition for USA, they want to divide EU to make it as inefficient as possible. And EE is helping in this by being so easy to be bought to do anything. They take EU aid granted, trying to grab as much US money they can in exchange for favours.

That is currently one of the bigger problems of EU.

That behaviour is not of course limited to USA. Russian power games partially work towards that goal as well. Keeping eastern parts agitated and situation tense to keep friction up in EU. But because Russia is so dependant on energy euros, they can't afford to be nearly as confrontational as USA.

[cegorach]

Did I speak of energy things? Not that I remember. Of course could be wrong.

If that was the point it is even worse...

I was pointing out to EE nations getting all comfy and letting USA pull them by the nose against EU interests (and in long term against their own interests) when some cash was being ruffled under their noses.

Against EU interests, how and when ?

Cash - where ?

Western Europe is finally getting it's act together and starting to form force to drive EUROPEAN interests at home and abroad. As this is dangerous competition for USA, they want to divide EU to make it as inefficient as possible. And EE is helping in this by being so easy to be bought to do anything. They take EU aid granted, trying to grab as much US money they can in exchange for favours.

Where ?

How is the EE bought and with what ? Where are the money ?

Tiwaz - you are indeed an EU imperialist/supremacist.
An oxymoron, but possible as I see now.

How is the USA sabotaging EU policy and in what areas ?

Examples please.

Examples where the EE acted as a troyan horse against the EU and in favour of the US policy.


There is only one reason you are saying that - because you are against euroatlanticism, I am sure that the NATO should be dissolved according to you too.
It is clearly visable because facts won't support your vision of the reality.

If the EE is bought - the question is where are the money it is supposed to receive. If the EE is acting against EU interests together with the USA - there should be at least one situation you can name.

One ?

Iraq ? Wrong.

Afghanistan ? Not at all.

Supporting Israel ? Last time I have checked the EU wasn't against it as well.

CIA secret detention facilities and flights ? Ironically more problems are in the WE with that.
Besides there is nothing can be said about the necessity of cooperation in the anti-terrorist activity.

Economy ? Where ?

Kosovo ? How ?

Etc.

Of course the short list is nothing, but to save me some time in case anyone tries to use that examples.

That is currently one of the bigger problems of EU.

Is it, how is that so ?

That behaviour is not of course limited to USA. Russian power games partially work towards that goal as well. Keeping eastern parts agitated and situation tense to keep friction up in EU.

So it is the troublesome EE again.

Somehow difficult to prove, actually illogical since if it the EE to be blamed how is that so the WE (and parts of the EE too, but that was supposed to be a confrontantional response) is signing the deals against the common interest of the EU ?

That is insane to blame the 'horrible' EE.

But because Russia is so dependant on energy euros, they can't afford to be nearly as confrontational as USA.

Of course, the USA is treatening the EU on regular basis while Russia is a peaceful energy supplier...

Not that it didn't open its own market, is taking over key companies and pipelines removing energy investors from its own market such as Shell or BP when its suits it or that it imposes embargos and blackmails its neighbours.
Not at all.

gaius valerius Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach
You still need to tell me how Poland endangered energy supplies for Germany. One fact at least ? Please, don't be shy I am sure you wouldn't claim something which isn't true, so I am waiting.

Well the 'official' reason was the fact that the pipelines ran through Poland, and since Poland got at a time into a lot of trouble with Moscow (the meat-issue for example) Germany feared that if the Russians were to ever shut the gas-crane, they'd be duped as well, hence an extra pipeline. Now I'm not claiming that there are other reasons.

Illogical - ermany needs the pipeline to secure itself against a possible shortage of energy if Russia shuts down one of the existing supply lines.
The problem is that it happens only if Russia can do that - i.e. has an alternative pipeline allowing such move.



There were no conflicts which could endanger energy supplies at that time.
Ukrainian and Belorussian cases happened LATER - to justify the need to continue with the expensive deal.

It was Russian idea, just like with the South Stream - to add an alternative pipeline so that those in the middle could be safely shut down, just like the one to Lithuania 'in repairs' since the time Polish Orlen bought the oil rafinery for which Russian companies were competing.
Though it is more obvious with the North Stream - the South Stream is mainly to counter Nabucco, the supply line completely independent from Russia - which is extremely expensive, dangerous to environment, opposed by 4-6 Baltic states ( can't say about Denmark right now) - so all except Germany (and possibly Denmark) and in general helping to create divisions in the EU now and in the future.

Divide and conquer and Germany went for that as Gazprom wanted.

Don't rationalise that on the ground of supposed shortages and tensions. Germany was ignoring the energy policy in the entire region by supporting the deal - to its own, narrow minded interests and that is all.

[Philos Sophos]

Well...how fast would you think NATO would come to help us then...it would take atleast a month

[gaius valerius]

Well...how fast would you think NATO would come to help us then...it would take atleast a month

Coming to help you and how fast we'll get there are 2 separate matters. You're from Estonia right? I don't know about the geostrategical situation over there and to which extend you can hold your own ground till help arrives, but help would come. It would after all be an act of agression of a member of a political family: how credible would it be to then go 'wooops get out of that shite yourself m8'? Russia for one isn't exactly the military bear it was during the Cold War.

Guess you'll have to hang tight that month . What do you expect? A high military presence - Korea-like - along your borders?

[Philos Sophos]

Well,the leaders of my country think that our army is full of Bruce Lee's and Chuck Norris,so we dont have good equipment now...Why do you think that your leaders would want to protect us...?

[gaius valerius]

Well,the leaders of my country think that our army is full of Bruce Lee's and Chuck Norris,so we dont have good equipment now...Why do you think that your leaders would want to protect us...?

Because you are now part of the EU-family for one (+NATO). Why would we for heavens sake stand for Russian agression against Estonia or any Eastern European country of the Union, regardless of how big or small it is. Like I said: you are a member of the Union, NOT aiding you would be... well, why even have the EU then? The EU is both an economical and political institution. It's not an 'everyone for himself and let Russia take out the little countries' kind of thing. Russian agression against Estonia equals Russian agression against the whole institution. That is why we have the moral obligation to aid you.

[Martin N]

Im sorry but it russia invaded estonia, or any country that is too small to defend itself, The Eu wouldent do , because america wouldent be involved,and not even whole of europe could fight and win a war against russia, as weak as it is, it is still the second strongest country in the world, Hell maybe take joint first as its nuclear weapon stockpiles outweighs europe by far, and even america and that is, is pretty obvious what would happen if WW3 broke out and The rest of europe interfered, Also not forgetting russian allies, china , N korea and the like.

Answering your questions, no Eu will not sell East europe but it will not defend it neither,The Eu is based upon the league of nations, it coped well with minor scale conflicts, but when world powers was involded, it quailed under the pressure without Americas involvements.