1 handed/2 handed axes

[the_mango55]

I have noticed that some units that have a 2 handed axe and a sheild will sometimes have some men wielding the axe with 2 hands, while others in the same unit use it one handed with a shield. Here's a pic of the Varangian Guard mercs (amazing looking unit btw).



First I would like to say that that's really cool, and would love to know how you did that.

But secondly, how does this effect the unit in combat? Are the stats different between the one handed user and the two hander? And if not, would the animations affect the kill rates anyway?

[Miraj]

Stats are normally based on the values given to a unit in the EDU irellevant of visual differences in-game, though I'm sure 2h vs 1h animation will affect battle performance of a unit like the Varangians.

Strelac, the creator of the ERE units and roster, would be best at answering this. So we can wait for a definite answer from him.

[Bull]

Actually, I've noticed that too. I think it's deliberate though. I've noticed that Varangian guards (both merc and native) have a primary AND a secondary attack, which both looks the same in descr_units file.

Now try this:
In a custom battle ask the varangians to attack with the primary attack (mouse right click), and they will charge and attack with both hands. Now if you switch to secondary attack (alt+right click) during the battle, the varangians stop for a sec, switches to one hand axe and shield, then attacks. It also works if you attack first with secondary attack. So essentially you can make the Varangians one hand/ two hand axe.

I don't know how Strelac pulled this off (the two animations and skins), and it wasn't documented it the features section.
But is sure is great!!!

[Strelac]

This is experimental concept, together with Spath. guard spear/sword combo. It gives the player ability to switch between both weapons type by using ALT+click. Each weapon has its own stat in the EDU, so in case of varangians, primary weapon is 1H axe/ secondary 2H axe. 2H axe is the strongest weapon, 1H axe is configured as 1H axe stat of similar unit on the same level minus penalty due to heavier axe.(1 to 2 attack points).
It works in the same way as cavalry primary /secondary weapon configuration.

Something that I may do in the future is reverse the primary/secondary weapons for varangians to help them to be more effective during attacking walls. Currently 2H axe is almost useless on the wall. If they would switch to sinlge axe, it would allow them to be offensive on walls.

[CelticPagan]

This is experimental concept, together with Spath. guard spear/sword combo. It gives the player ability to switch between both weapons type by using ALT+click. Each weapon has its own stat in the EDU, so in case of varangians, primary weapon is 1H axe/ secondary 2H axe. 2H axe is the strongest weapon, 1H axe is configured as 1H axe stat of similar unit on the same level minus penalty due to heavier axe.(1 to 2 attack points).
It works in the same way as cavalry primary /secondary weapon configuration.

Something that I may do in the future is reverse the primary/secondary weapons for varangians to help them to be more effective during attacking walls. Currently 2H axe is almost useless on the wall. If they would switch to sinlge axe, it would allow them to be offensive on walls.

Strelac, could this concept be used for the creation of a unit using hand-and-a-half/bastard swords? That would be sweet! Also, I could see this used for spear only troops, say primary weapon being spear and secondary being short pike, so they could attack either by thrusting with one hand while raising their shield up, or grasping the spear with both hands, somewhat negating the defense of the shield, but increasing the force the thrust would have...

Oh, almost forgot +REP

[Strelac]

Strelac, could this concept be used for the creation of a unit using hand-and-a-half/bastard swords?
Oh, almost forgot +REP

That's an neat idea Celtic, and yes, it would work. It can be done by either configuring MDB correctly or changing animations.

@Mango55
Right, when player uses the unit, it seems to partially switch between two weapons, if you use only "left click" command. Therefore, use ALT+Click to lock units in 2H stage or right-click to lock it in 1H configuration. ( i think; i haven’t played with them for a while...but it works; play around w it)

Vanilla Pike secondary weapon is broken. They switch to 2ndary weapon soon as they get in contact w opponents. The reason for this is that CA didn't give pikemans defensive properties, so they decided to switch them to swords, so that when switched to sword unit starts to play "sword animations" which do have defensive properties. Sort of “cheep” work-around.
In times of RTW, pikeman formations were given particular defensive properties when attacked from front and left. If unit was attacked from right or rear, it would pull the sword out.
I tried to revert this for MTW2 pikemans, but it didn’t work, leading me to assumption that it was application code that was somehow impacted as well.

[the_mango55]

Very cool concept.

However, I have noticed, as shown on the screenshot, that the entire unit doesn't attack with one or the other, but seemingly randomly, with some using two hands and others using a shield.

I don't really mind, especially for a unit of ferocious northmen like the Varangians, for them to have some variation in their attacks, but it may affect how they fight.

[Serious Spamurai]

But I thought that units almost always switched to the secondary attack in combat? Like pikemen. Cool concept though.

[Lupu]

that would be cool, for the weaker units: spear and short pike(because they cant pay for other wepons) and for higher units a short sword, as a spear can easily break, no good way to loose an elite warrior...
One cool thing is that pike units dont need to have the spear wall abilty, they have a cool charge animation too, it works even better with short pikes because the long pikes get lowered too late.

[the_mango55]

Well pike units have had secondary weapons since Rome (The Spartans were almost better with swords than they were with pikes) but this is the first time I have seen the secondary weapon be the same model. It's a pretty cool system if you ask me.

[Kiki52]

I hope it doesn't become too overpowered. It'd be bad if heavy inf units get an awesome melee attack and a spear. So if they attack infantry, they use the melee attack. If a strong cavalry unit is charging them, pull out the spear and slaughter the Roman Kataphracts. It's already wierd enough having turkopole archers with spears slaughter Royal Mamluk cavalry when cavalry in general is supposed to be the counter of archers. It's still viable to still attack turkopole archers with cav charges but requires much coordination to run out a bit to get them to switch to bow then charge again with that out. I hope BC doesn't turn into an all spearmen fest. That would make using cavalry charges a bit too nonviable unless some other form of balancing is done.

[DarthDisco]

I too had noticed this 2 handed / 1 handed effect but did not understand how it worked. I have been very impressed by both the gameplay effect it has and also the Realism it creates, (I mean who's gonna go to war lugging a shield on your back and not use it right?) I would like to see this concept expanded to other factions and units, where applicable.

One unit that comes to mind off hand is the KoJ Templar Axemen. They already carry a shield on their backs, and have a shield stat. I noticed the Levantine Crossbowmen take their shields out when switching to melee mode. I assume this is the same concept at work.

[Bull]

Only one small problem that I've noticed, is that if you have a cavalry charge the ERE elite hoplites, they don't all fight the horsemen with spears as they should. Some of these guys actually pull out their swords, and you can see how that's going to reduce their effectiveness.

Well, I suppose we can always imaging their spears got broken by the initial cavalry charge.