Hyspystist(Sp?) spear only?

[Phalanx300]

I am using the short_pike minimod(it's great ) and I've already given Iphikratous and Thorakitai Hoplitai the formation by removing their swords(they fight in a better formation now with their spears still low , different then the ordinary hoplites), now I came to the Hyspystist(sp?) but their primary weapon is the sword, so how to change it so that the primary is the spear, I tried swaping it by copying the sword to sec and spear from sec to prim and added the Short Pike but when I tried to start up it didn't work?

[starXdiaMoo]

Why would you do that? You would ruin the unit's role in battle completely...

[Phalanx300]

They fought as hoplites and as swordsman, so since I prefer to have them the Hoplite way I wanted to change it .

[starXdiaMoo]

Hmmm, I still can't understand this but anyway... A much quicker solution would be to add the ''shieldwall'' ability to them, provided you have BI installed. Worked just fine for me, btw

S.P.: I don't want to seem like a perfectionist or something, but it's Hypaspists in English and Hypaspistai in Greek

[thebigbossnahhh]

Hmmm, I still can't understand this but anyway... A much quicker solution would be to add the ''shieldwall'' ability to them, provided you have BI installed. Worked just fine for me, btw

S.P.: I don't want to seem like a perfectionist or something, but it's Hypaspists in English and Hypaspistai in Greek

I've seen certain Barbarian Soldiers use both Spears AND Swords up close.
How they managed that I don't know?

[Phalanx300]

To bad I don't have BI(will have it some time, as Hegemonia is tend to come out sometime). Well, I just prefer the short_pike becouse it better represents Hoplites. And I know that I've written Hypastists wrong. Also the short_pike is way better then shieldwall if you ask me, with short_pike they actually push, and I've heard that with shieldwall this isn't the case.

[starXdiaMoo]

Actually, the short_pike attribute has many flukes. First of all, the formation is too tight. I mean, even Spartas could prbably not maintain such a perfect formations. No hoplite unit ever did, it was all upon attrition and push. Secondly, soldiers in the back ranks wield their sears in a 45 degree angle, which is totally unrealistic for hoplites.

The only good thing about this formation, is the fact that they can run. Just that. And because of these points and maybe even more, the EB team didn't implement this formation, which actually is a ''pseudophalanx'' of some sort.

As for the shieldwall formation, it may not be perfect, but it's the closest to reality. That is, within the limits of the RTW engine of course. I must tell you, in shieldwall formation they all keep their spears lowered and they push just finely. Sometimes you get that some units get out of line, but we can't have it all, can we?

[Phalanx300]

Well, then thats your opinion but your completely forgetting about the fact that they actually "push". And the way they are now, they even less resemble hoplites then when they are in that to dense formation. And the spears now are also weird looking when units are standing still(some units that is). There are just way more positives points in using the formation then negatives if you'd ask me.

[starXdiaMoo]

I see, but as you said it's a personal oppinion. It's just that, I don't really like it when someone says things like the short_pike attribute is much better or the shieldwall formation thus it should be changed or something. I just stated the fact that the EB team decided not to use this specific attribute at all and preferred to stick to the ''old'' overhand hoplites. This means something, at least...

[Phalanx300]

I see, but as you said it's a personal oppinion. It's just that, I don't really like it when someone says things like the short_pike attribute is much better or the shieldwall formation thus it should be changed or something. I just stated the fact that the EB team decided not to use this specific attribute at all and preferred to stick to the ''old'' overhand hoplites. This means something, at least...

Well alot of people use the short_pike, that must also mean something. Maybe add it as a choice like the naked gaestatae or one with pants choice.

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

The original EB hoplites work fine; the overhand formation is lethal.

[Phalanx300]

They are good, but the only problem I have with them is that they don't fight as Hoplites did. The are just ordinary spearman, which is certainly not what Hoplites were. And this Short_Pike minimod enables them to fight better as Hoplites did and not as spearman.

[mcantu]

what is your definition of "fight as Hoplites did"?

[starXdiaMoo]

That's exactly what I meant to say from the start. We can't know how they fought, so everyone does as he pleases.

[Phalanx300]

Well, they sure didn't fight as loose spearman in battles.

My definition of fighting as hoplites did, well getting in a close formation with locked shields and spear held overhand above it. The mass of hoplites stay together and charge into the enemy and start to push apart the enemy formation while stabbing above their spears.

I was pretty sure that the above was agreed on by most Historians and Reenactors?

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Well, they sure didn't fight as loose spearman in battles.

My definition of fighting as hoplites did, well getting in a close formation with locked shields and spear held overhand above it. The mass of hoplites stay together and charge into the enemy and start to push apart the enemy formation while stabbing above their spears.

I was pretty sure that the above was agreed on by most Historians and Reenactors?

not possible 100% in RTW engine-if you are that picky, take 2 suggestions:
1-in RTW: use guard mode-that simulates it quite well. and charge the momet you see the men lock shields to meet the enemy (around 40-50m). when on impact and fighting, order them to attack again (with double click), on who they are fighting, that simulates the push. needs micrro managing, but no one said hoplte battles were simple to coordinate..
2-or switch to BI (that's easy enough), and play with the EDU...
otherwise-they are doing what they are told. the EB team has done its best to recreate hoplite warfare under the ridiculous circumstances..including the game engine and the overly nitpicky.
and as for the fella arguing that the hoplite doru use is wrong, 2 words: chigi vase. 2 more: Alexander sarcophagus. a few more: about every depiction of hoplite warfare in the timeperiod...(look them up).
also having read medieval works, the "old fashioned use" of spears is described as the overarm type-indicating universal and very common usage (it was in a history written about the English fights with the welsh-the same one that discussed the poor knight who lost his horse with an arrow that went through his thigh and into the horse. you know what weapon that is). that's why 90% of all spear armed EB units use this method..

[Phalanx300]

not possible 100% in RTW engine-if you are that picky, take 2 suggestions:
1-in RTW: use guard mode-that simulates it quite well. and charge the momet you see the men lock shields to meet the enemy (around 40-50m). when on impact and fighting, order them to attack again (with double click), on who they are fighting, that simulates the push. needs micrro managing, but no one said hoplte battles were simple to coordinate..
2-or switch to BI (that's easy enough), and play with the EDU...
otherwise-they are doing what they are told. the EB team has done its best to recreate hoplite warfare under the ridiculous circumstances..including the game engine and the overly nitpicky.
and as for the fella arguing that the hoplite doru use is wrong, 2 words: chigi vase. 2 more: Alexander sarcophagus. a few more: about every depiction of hoplite warfare in the timeperiod...(look them up).
also having read medieval works, the "old fashioned use" of spears is described as the overarm type-indicating universal and very common usage (it was in a history written about the English fights with the welsh-the same one that discussed the poor knight who lost his horse with an arrow that went through his thigh and into the horse. you know what weapon that is). that's why 90% of all spear armed EB units use this method..

I never said that I'm against the overhand animation, using the short_pike will enable them to keep overhand while also pushing the enemy. And its not really that fun if you're the only one to use only guard mode in this mod, well not really but the AI only uses some troops for guard mode when using Hoplites. This isn't their fault ofcourse but this short_pike formation makes everything good, the only negative part is that the back rows hold their spears at weird angles. But there a way more positives, 1. they push 2. they stay in a close formation 3. they can run in a close formation. Way more positives then negatives. As in my opinion Hoplite warfare was more about pushing then the fighting, ofcourse the fighting was important but it basicly came down to pushing.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

I never said that I'm against the overhand animation, using the short_pike will enable them to keep overhand while also pushing the enemy. And its not really that fun if you're the only one to use only guard mode in this mod, well not really but the AI only uses some troops for guard mode when using Hoplites. This isn't their fault ofcourse but this short_pike formation makes everything good, the only negative part is that the back rows hold their spears at weird angles. But there a way more positives, 1. they push 2. they stay in a close formation 3. they can run in a close formation. Way more positives then negatives. As in my opinion Hoplite warfare was more about pushing then the fighting, ofcourse the fighting was important but it basicly came down to pushing.

I just wanted to point out I know you know about the overhand use. that was in case someone asks (its bound to happen). but the evidence still stands. the way the RTW engine works forces them to make hoplites like so. the hoplites never carried it like in short pike, and I know the hoplites pushed more often than fight. but the truth is, the team most likely considered short_pike and rejected it. its simply not historically right. if you want, shield wall is your best bet: its accurate enough, they still "push", and their posture isn't so dodgy-though I prefer just using the guard mode. if you want to chage to BI, again, its not that hard (they have instructions elsewhere), and you can add shield_wall yourself in the EDU. moral: if you don't like it, and can do smth about it-change it, not complain about it. if short pike is good for you, use it, and stop fussing--it gets a wee bit annoying real quick fussing about something you yourself had "fixed"

[Phalanx300]

I just wanted to point out I know you know about the overhand use. that was in case someone asks (its bound to happen). but the evidence still stands. the way the RTW engine works forces them to make hoplites like so. the hoplites never carried it like in short pike, and I know the hoplites pushed more often than fight. but the truth is, the team most likely considered short_pike and rejected it. its simply not historically right. if you want, shield wall is your best bet: its accurate enough, they still "push", and their posture isn't so dodgy-though I prefer just using the guard mode. if you want to chage to BI, again, its not that hard (they have instructions elsewhere), and you can add shield_wall yourself in the EDU. moral: if you don't like it, and can do smth about it-change it, not complain about it. if short pike is good for you, use it, and stop fussing--it gets a wee bit annoying real quick fussing about something you yourself had "fixed"

Well this started with them asking why I prefered the short_pike, and I know the short_pike also isn't completely right, but in my opinion it is better then letting the hoplites fight as ordinary spearman.

Do you mean the angle of the spears or how they hold it?

The angle.

[Juggernaut]

This isn't their fault ofcourse but this short_pike formation makes everything good, the only negative part is that the back rows hold their spears at weird angles.

Do you mean the angle of the spears or how they hold it?