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    Default European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...0micmCoHys0NUE

    Matthew, a 26-year-old chimp, is headed to court in Europe as part of a human effort to classify him as a person.

    Beyond the legal challenges, anthropologists say chimpanzees are not humans, though without a clear definition of what it means to be human, backing that claim up is a challenge perhaps fit for some great courtroom drama.

    Animal rights activist and teacher Paula Stibbe, along with the Vienna-based Association Against Animal Factories (AAAF), says she wants the chimpanzee, named Matthew Hiasl Pan, declared a person. That way, Stibbe says she can become the primate's legal guardian if the bankrupt animal sanctuary where Matthew lives closes. (Under Austrian law, only humans are entitled to have guardians.)

    The appeal has been filed in the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France. The case comes after Austria's Supreme Court upheld a lower court ruling in January, which rejected a request to appoint the chimp with a legal guardian. The rulings did not address whether a chimpanzee could be declared a person.

    "His life depends on this decision," Eberhart Theuer, the animal rights group's legal advisor, told the Evening Standard, a tabloid newspaper in London. "This case is about the fundamental question: Who is the bearer of human rights? Who is a person according to the European Human Rights Charter?"

    For some scientists, the question of humanness is a tricky one, as no single characteristic separates humans from every other animal. And behaviors once thought exclusive to us, such as tool-making, exist in many non-human primates. Considered our closest living relatives, chimps behave a lot like us and even share about 96 percent of their DNA sequence with humans.

    But the bottom line is, chimps are chimps, not humans, say anthropologists.

    "Granted, chimpanzees show many similarities with us as humans," said John Mitani, a primate behavioral ecologist at the University of Michigan, "but they are nonetheless chimpanzees, not humans, and are obviously different as well."

    Chimp characteristics

    One anthropologist says the chimp dilemma brings up an animal-rights issue.

    "We don't have a real formal venue for chimpanzees that have outlived their usefulness to whatever humans sort of owned them," said Jonathan Marks of the University of North Carolina, Charlotte. "Obviously it's a situation that needs to be addressed, but it needs to be addressed in the realm of animal welfare. Confusing humans for chimps never did anybody any good."

    But is Matthew really like you and me?

    "Everybody who knows him personally will see him as a person," Stibbe told the Evening Standard.

    Yet the definition of what it means to be a person, to be human, is a work in progress.

    "One of the hard things is there is no single characteristic that has been found that makes humans truly unique," said Sarah Brosnan of Georgia State University. Brosnan studies social behavior and cognition in non-human primates.

    Making matters worse, chimps show a smorgasbord of behaviors once tagged to humans only, including altruism, tool-use, an ability to learn from their kin and deal-making behaviors.

    Looking to genetics for an answer is also thorny. If you were to line up any string of nucleotides (structural units) from a chimp's DNA with the corresponding human strand, about 96 or 98 out of 100 of the nucleotides would match up.

    "Nobody is going to look at a human genome and a chimp genome and mix them up," Brosnan said. "But human genomes are different from each other, so it depends on where you draw the line."

    Chimp-human split

    About 6 million years ago, chimpanzees and human ancestors diverged. Chimps went their way, and we began to go ours.

    The split led to various differences. For instance, chimps are covered in hair and we are much less so. A chimp's brain is about one-third the size of an average human brain. And we walk upright on two legs, while chimps typically walk on all fours.

    "What seems to have happened initially is that our ancestors began walking most of the time upright on two legs," Marks said.

    Along the way, our ancestors shed their thick coats of body hair, which allowed us to disperse body heat differently from chimps. Chimpanzees, like most mammals, pant to keep their bodies from heating up. Humans sweat. Apparently, Marks said, when our ancestors began speaking, their vocal tracts reorganized and that made it difficult to pant.

    Teeth tell a tale, too. Along our evolutionary trek, human ancestors developed much smaller canine teeth, while chimps still sport the dagger-like teeth.

    "Male chimpanzees have canine teeth much larger than female chimpanzees," Marks told LiveScience. "That difference doesn't exist in humans. We call our lawyers instead of bearing our canine teeth. And women can call their lawyers just as readily as men can."

    Animal rights

    Even still, activist Stibbe says the legal standing is the only way to ensure the chimp's survival.

    "In his home in the African jungle, he would have been well able to look after himself without a guardian," Stibbe said. "But since he was abducted into an alien environment, traumatized and locked up in an enclosure, it did become necessary for me to act on his behalf to secure the donation money for him and to avoid his deportation."

    Marks disputes Stibbe's statement, saying that in nature chimps do have guardians, or other chimps to watch their backs. "That's ridiculous. Chimpanzees are very social creatures," Marks said. "One of the other tragedies of this chimpanzee is it seems to have grown up largely in isolation from other chimpanzees."

    If Matthew the chimp were declared a person, scientists foresee it would open a messy can of worms.

    "In general, I don't think that it's a good idea to grant chimpanzees legal human rights," Mitani said. "Chimpanzees are well-known to kill each other. What would we do to perpetrators of those 'crimes?'"

    And what about other animals, like dogs and dolphins: A chimp-is-a-person ruling could trigger similar court cases in support of non-human animals getting human status, said Brosnan and other anthropologists.
    Cause chimps are people too...

  2. #2
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    why doesn't she just try to adopt it as a pet, rather than become a "legal guardian"
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Until chimpanzee society is able to land on the moon, perform brain surgery, construct 1,000 ft buildings etc., I don't think they deserve the rights of humans.

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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Can you do any of those things, Sphere? I am going to venture a guess at no. Dose that mean that you are human?

    As for chips, while they are cute and funney I am going to have to say that they are not human. I think you have to be human to be human, it is a very exclusive club. This lady probly dosen't want to have the chip as a pet beacouse she is one of those animal rights activists. As such she would feel moraly outraged at the prosepect of "owning another animial." I find that notion to be absurd personaly, but if she wants to wast time and money in the courts I say more power to her.

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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    I suppose an animal can be a person, even have personality (like my cat) but generally it might be hard to know what that means for the animal. It seems to me not absolutely narrish in the case of higher primates, to give them such a right if it helps to preserve them from exstinction, what unfortunately is the fate most of those unlucky beings face now. Will we soon see Indonesia's rangutans climbing over the roofs of our cities, or Zaire's gorillas eating leaves from the bonsai palm tree in the restaurant of our department stores? I would not exclude it, - and I am the last who was against. A monkey more everyday would not surprise me at all. My mishpokhe!
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; May 29, 2008 at 01:23 PM.
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Until chimpanzee society is able to land on the moon, perform brain surgery, construct 1,000 ft buildings etc., I don't think they deserve the rights of humans.
    Retarded and disabled people can't do that, it means they do not deserve the rights of humans? All animals should have the basic rights of humans, as for example, the right not to be hurt by humans or live as a circus animal.
    Sigh...

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    Biarchus
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    But then who will perform in our circuses? And what will we use for meat? It is true that Humans are animals but that dosen't mean that animals are Human. To treat them as such would be unfair to us and them. If I am driving my car and I hit a deer and it dies am I liable for murdure the same way I would be if I hit you with my car? If a lion kills a gazel is it liable for murdur? Animals are animals, let them be treated as such.

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    Aziel's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by General Dissaray View Post
    But then who will perform in our circuses? And what will we use for meat? It is true that Humans are animals but that dosen't mean that animals are Human. To treat them as such would be unfair to us and them. If I am driving my car and I hit a deer and it dies am I liable for murdure the same way I would be if I hit you with my car? If a lion kills a gazel is it liable for murdur? Animals are animals, let them be treated as such.
    It is not even relevant if they are humans or not (and they aren't), they first of all living creatures. Animals should have the same rights as living creatures. About the lion, well, a lion needs meat to survive, us, humans, can survive without meat. Although meat is tasty, and I ate meat 4 hours ago, at least we should threat the animals were are going to eat much nicer, and let them live without harming them much (excluding the killing part...).
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by Azael33 View Post
    Retarded and disabled people can't do that, it means they do not deserve the rights of humans? All animals should have the basic rights of humans, as for example, the right not to be hurt by humans or live as a circus animal.
    I believe he said "society". I don't believe that retarded and disabled people are a separate society.
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by Azael33 View Post
    Retarded and disabled people can't do that, it means they do not deserve the rights of humans? All animals should have the basic rights of humans, as for example, the right not to be hurt by humans or live as a circus animal.
    you've got to be kidding. There is a clear distinction between an animal and humans.

    And yes, I realize that we're "technically animals" as well, but for all intents and purposes, we can differentiate ourselves from animals.

    So no, animals do not have basic rights.
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    So no, animals do not have basic rights.
    What do you mean by basic rights?

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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Until chimpanzee society is able to land on the moon, perform brain surgery, construct 1,000 ft buildings etc., I don't think they deserve the rights of humans.
    So you are saying that the people who lived before 1969 were not humans and didn't have any human rights :hmmm:?

    Anyway this is rofl. Ofcourse they are not people, they are monkeys.

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  13. #13

    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Giving these animals human rights in Europe doesn't help to prevent anyone in Africa or Asia hunting these animals.

    A chimp is a wild animal not a house/farm animal and also not human.

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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodwig I. View Post
    A chimp is a wild animal not a house/farm animal and also not human.
    Well, we might have to close ranks here when we do not want to see the gorilla, chimp and orangutan soon been gone because of the poaching and industrial use of rain forests.
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    Biarchus
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    We don't need to clasify them as humans to do that though. We can simply make people not do things that kill them by force of law. Pass new laws that get it done or enforce the laws we have in place now to get it done. Saying a chimp is human isn't going to make a poacher think any diferant about killing it.

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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by General Dissaray View Post
    We don't need to clasify them as humans to do that though. We can simply make people not do things that kill them by force of law. Pass new laws that get it done or enforce the laws we have in place now to get it done. Saying a chimp is human isn't going to make a poacher think any diferant about killing it.
    Sigh...

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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    What a ****ing joke the European Council of Human Rights is.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    What a ****ing joke the European Council of Human Rights is.
    she took the case there to get a ruling they don't go looking for these things. seeing as the issue is whether the chimp gets rights associated with humans the court of human rights seems the most logical place...
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    Blau&Gruen's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    The european court of human rights can of course decide much as long a national legislator does not make it law. It is more of an indicator into which direction the legislation may move in the future in countries which have signed the treaty to install the court. It is not comparable to the power of a national supreme-court.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; May 29, 2008 at 02:13 PM.
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    Default Re: European court of human rights to decide whether chimps are people

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary88 View Post
    she took the case there to get a ruling they don't go looking for these things. seeing as the issue is whether the chimp gets rights associated with humans the court of human rights seems the most logical place...
    If they were in anyway not a joke they should have just told her to **** off.
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