is it possible to be patriotic, and believe in the equality of all nations and peoples?

[antaeus]

or are they mutually exclusive?

[Senno]

Yes. I am such a person.

[Exarch]

Yes. I am such a person.

it is possible to love one's own family (country included) and still resonate a love for all of mankind.
i jsut think it gets harder as time will often offer up many opportunities to test this.
i, for one am a mixture of nationalities-being a taiwanese born (some would designate me as being chinese), Australian, but (maybe because of it) i hold a very aquarian worldview in that all that matters in life for me to side with you, is that one is homo sapiens sapiens-all else is trivial.
factionalism and sectarianism, like the medieval rivlaries of the italian city states only serve to weaken the whole 'group' (in this eg, Italy) as a whole. Similarly, i feel as though this rivalry and sectarianism tears humanity apart.


i say in the case of someone like senno who (according to our PM communique) is a patriotic american as well as a lover of mankind-that it'll be very hard for someone like him who has been conditioned to love america, to choose between his lvoe for his country and his love for his fellow man.
sorry if i'm being a bit airy in my prose; it's still early here. and i'm pre-coffee.

becuase america-like china and russia, cultivates a strong sens eof natioanlism with their kids

[Senno]

it is possible to love one's own family (country included) and still resonate a love for all of mankind.
i jsut think it gets harder as time will often offer up many opportunities to test this.
i, for one am a mixture of nationalities-being a taiwanese born (some would designate me as being chinese), Australian, but (maybe because of it) i hold a very aquarian worldview in that all that matters in life for me to side with you, is that one is homo sapiens sapiens-all else is trivial.
factionalism and sectarianism, like the medieval rivlaries of the italian city states only serve to weaken the whole 'group' (in this eg, Italy) as a whole. Similarly, i feel as though this rivalry and sectarianism tears humanity apart.

Hmm. After 200 years here the most identifiable part of me is 1/8 Cherokee. The rest would be english, swedish, irish and unknown really.

The world seems to be moving back to a "balcanization" of interests in order to economically compete. I'm uncertain if this is good or bad, or a self-fulfilling prophesy, ultimately. It is probably all of the above, as people ultimately act as people have always acted.

i say in the case of someone like senno who (according to our PM communique) is a patriotic american as well as a lover of mankind-that it'll be very hard for someone like him who has been conditioned to love america, to choose between his lvoe for his country and his love for his fellow man.
sorry if i'm being a bit airy in my prose; it's still early here. and i'm pre-coffee.

Hmm, interesting endorsement.

[Carach]

or are they mutually exclusive?

its possible.

whether those beliefs are futile/unrealistic, is another matter

[Senno]

its possible.

whether those beliefs are futile/unrealistic, is another matter

Yeah, people operate on cause/effect. If I push you, do you push back? If not, I push more.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Thanatos]

Of course you can. Patriotism and nationalism are NOT the same thing. The problem is that people often confuse the two these days, and it doesn't help that people like Bush use the term "patriot" instead of "nationalist."

[wilpuri]

Of course you can. Patriotism and nationalism are NOT the same thing. The problem is that people often confuse the two these days, and it doesn't help that people like Bush use the term "patriot" instead of "nationalist."

If Bush used the term nationalist then all hell would break lose and I'd start calling myself a 15th century Venetian painter.

[NakedBarbarian2]

You would have to define patriot, because it really is an angel hair between patriotism and nationalism

Patriot?


Or is this a Patriot?


This?


Or This?

[Yuiis]

There are several types of nationalism. Depending on which you practice, you can be fair and respectable or you can simply fall into stupid behaviors and feelings with dictatorial tendencies.

Expansionist nationalism for example, is completely the opposite of stateless nationalism. The first one is patriotic but believes that his nation is superior than the rest, and that he must rule over all the nations or ethnicities that he can, to the point that he even considers that some of these nations belong to him. The other one tries to defend itself from this, and empathizes with all nations and peoples that are living under the same situation.

[Xan]

I would say i`m a patriot i love my country. But that dosen`t mean i think my country is perfect.
It`S kinda the same as with family i love my family that dosen`t make them perfect or better then yours but they are mine and so is my country.

[Carach]

You would have to define patriot, because it really is an angel hair between patriotism and nationalism

Or is this a Patriot?

he was never a patriot, the definition simply doesnt fit with mr Hitler.

He came from austria, ruled germany.. he was a nationalist that wanted the German race first and foremost in the world.. Thats nationalism and racism, not patriotism

[NakedBarbarian2]

he was never a patriot, the definition simply doesnt fit with mr Hitler.

He came from austria, ruled germany.. he was a nationalist that wanted the German race first and foremost in the world.. Thats nationalism and racism, not patriotism

Ofcoarse, but what I'm saying is that there is no white and black with patriotism and nationalism - sure there are the extremes of each case but in general i think theres a whole lot of 'grey' where one risks becoming the other....

[Exarch]

he was never a patriot, the definition simply doesnt fit with mr Hitler.

He came from austria, ruled germany.. he was a nationalist that wanted the German race first and foremost in the world.. Thats nationalism and racism, not patriotism

technically he could've been considered a 'patriot' considering the Anschluss had occurred

[Carach]

technically he could've been considered a 'patriot' considering the Anschluss had occurred

thats more like nationalism, he wanted his race of germans united under one banner.

Germans are traditional nationalists

[boofhead]

I love my country too, as much as it pisses me off sometimes. And I believe all men were created equal, as individuals, by God. But if anyone invades I will be among the first in my car to head north and do some killing.

I don't believe all nations are equal. Nor all social, political, cultural or religious systems. Some are just outright better than others. But at the same time, the individual is as valuable as myself, even if the nation as a whole sucks balls.

[Hounf of Culan]

To a certain degree I really would say that no you cannot have a sincere philanthropic love for other nations if you truly love your own. The reason I think so is that I really do not think that nations by their nature exist in a friendly hugs for everyone world, its really a cutthroat battle for survival against everyone else. And its much better that my country wins rather than someone else's country. Now I do think you can be "friends" with some other country, but only so long as you reap significant benefits from that friendship.

[themoob]

It's plenty possible I think.

When the patriotism turns into nationalism though, that's where things go wrong.

I see patriotism as being proud of ones country and being a part of it, and see nationalism as thinking ones own country is the best, and that all other (insert ethnicity/religion/culture) should not taint the country with their differences and shoudl instead completely assimilate.

[Yuiis]

It's plenty possible I think.

When the patriotism turns into nationalism though, that's where things go wrong.

I see patriotism as being proud of ones country and being a part of it, and see nationalism as thinking ones own country is the best, and that all other (insert ethnicity/religion/culture) should not taint the country with their differences and shoudl instead completely assimilate.

Patriotism and nationalism are 99% synonims. You can be nationalist and not think that your country is the best and that your nation should take over the rest of the world. As I said some posts above, there are different types of nationalism.

Hitler was an expansionist nationalist/patriot.

[Joker85]

Since when are all nations equal?