Legionary Idea(s)

[Revan The Great]

Hay thar.

I've been an off-again on-again lurker of this forum for several years now, and I picked up Roma Surrectum a month or two ago. I only just recently switched to 1.5!

At any rate, some of you may recall that in 1.0 it was possible to recruit Imperial Legions in the majority of the cities in Italy, depending on what level of barracks you have. I liked that, and it came as a blow to me when I realized that in 1.5 not only could you not recruit multiple legions from the same town, you can seemingly only recruit Imperial Legions on the 'outside' of your Empire, so instead of 10 or 11 from Italy there are only a mere 2 in Northern Italy, the rest are scattered around the Alps, the East, Illyria, the Rhine, etc.

This is of course historically accurate...to an extent. A great many legions were levied in Italy of course, and playing from the standpoint of someone who tends to so things his own way and not strictly historically it can be a little bit of a bother if I decide to become an 'Empire' a couple hundred years early and upgrade to Imperial Legions before or shortly after expanding out of Italy, likewise it's also annoying if I don't grab the legion-rich spots of the Danube frontier and the Rhine frontier and instead concentrate on Africa, Sicily, and Spain for example which have a pathetic 3 legions between them!

So I had a couple of suggestions.

First: Historically, whenever an Emperor, Governor, Consul, whoever needed a Legion he'd levy it if at all possible. This doesn't mean that they'd only be able to recruit from certain cities conveniently marked with an (L) in their name, but rather if the Governor of the province of Lusitania (as historically defined in roughly modern Portugal, in the far west of Iberia) wants to levy a legion he's simply out of luck because the governor of Taraconesis has the two provinces that can raise legions >_> What I suggest is that all of the Roman provinces (i.e. an AOR which includes where the Romans historically expanded) have the ability to raise generic Legions without a number that are of slightly inferior quality to the other, named legions. Basically like the VE Legions except with a Republic and Imperial legion flavor. Perhaps similar to the current 'Veteranii' except...well, more men, and better. And with an eagle.

Secondly: I believe the individual AOR's for the named and custom-skinned Legions (particularly the Imperials) should be expanded so that each Imperial Legion has at least two places to be recruited so that you can make that legion wherever it may be needed. I may well want to use the Fulminata in Britain and not have to ship it in from the Mid-East afterall!

Thirdly: I'd recommend a tiny expansion of named Legionary AOR to include Numdia (Lambaesis the city is called?), since that is historically where the only [West] African legion was stationed.

Thank ye for reading my lengthy post, and I hope my ideas are taken seriously and implemented by the makers of this great mod!

-Revan

[Oli]

unless im very much mistaken the auxillia troops of the romans that are widely available will be getting a huge make over in RS 2 that im sure will represent your first idea. I believe they will be various types and a lot stronger so they will be just slightly worse than the named legions, similar to the veteranii.

Not sure about your other points, although i do agree wit the second one.

Im sure there's more legions that are recruitable in Italy though :hmmm:

[SMoVader]

it would be nice if you could name your legion when you created it but I guess it's just not possible

[RomaVictor6969]

lol i agree that would rule

[rory o'kane]

you can't. RTW doesn't allow it unfortunately. if we had more unit slots available, we'd squeeze more legions in - we're down to 28 named and numbered legions in RS 2.0. I was quite sad to see II Traiana Fortis and XXX Ulpia Victrix go...

[EternalSlayer]

In that case could you consider making the legions available in more cities? I'm sure that would do the trick.

By that I mean cities that were historically controlled by Rome. I think Revan makes a good point about Numidia, I'm sure there are others.

[rory o'kane]

In that case could you consider making the legions available in more cities? I'm sure that would do the trick.

By that I mean cities that were historically controlled by Rome. I think Revan makes a good point about Numidia, I'm sure there are others.

I think so too. The problem is, that we have got most of the areas that the legions were recruited/stationed as AORs already - there's quite a few on the Rhine and Danube, in the East in Syria and Alexandria, and in transalpine Gaul, and Italy as well. I can't remember if we made any of them recruitable in Britain, though!

[EternalSlayer]

If you're talking about 1.5, the answer is yes.

[RomaVictor6969]

you can't. RTW doesn't allow it unfortunately. if we had more unit slots available, we'd squeeze more legions in - we're down to 28 named and numbered legions in RS 2.0. I was quite sad to see II Traiana Fortis and XXX Ulpia Victrix go...

wow what a slash 35 to 28 x.x

[dvk901]

The Legion recruitment scheme in RS1.5 will probably never get changed, because, quite frankly, it is an absolute nightmare to figure out. It took several patches and playing a whole campaign MYSELF to finally get it right the way it is. But the reason it's so hard to implement in RS1.5 is because the Legion AOR is strictly controlled by hidden resources, and I had to be very careful that not more than 30 units ever showed up recruitable in any given region...otherwise, instant CTD.

In RS2, however, the Legion AOR is based not only on hidden resources, but on building a Legion Base (Italy), a Limes Fortification (European) or an Eastern Fort (Eastern\Africa). This greatly simplifies the recruitment, and reduces the chaos.

Still, the recruitment scheme in terms of it's final look is up for grabs, in a sense. I can tell you there will be no 'generic' Legions in RS2. This is a historical mod that attempts to portray the reality of the world situation at that time, and generic legions are just an RTW vanilla joke. The Romans never recruited Legions everywhere and anywhere they pleased because they had become VERY conscious of the Auxilia problems they had during the reign of Augustus. Whole armies revolting and taking their training and equipment with them in revolt against the Empire was a very serious problem just with the Auxilia...let alone the Legions. Thus, the Legions were made up of Roman citizens for the most part. This put a limitation on where a Legion could be recruited, and historically, we have the examples of those limitations.

I'm fully aware that in RS1.5, if you bring on the 'Imperial Reforms' in a hurry, you have essentially screwed yourself. I don't know what to do about that, since it is the choice of some players to do this, and not the intention of how we wish to portray the Roman military. RTW portrayed the Romans in the sense of 'instant' vast changes to Rome's armies, as if a 'reform' put into place just overnite changed everything. There is no historical evidence this ever happened...indeed, there is more indication that it did not. Augustus inherited some 50+ legions when he became Emperor, and reduced the number to a standing 28 Legions...and as far as we could find, the number never went over 30 again. What happened to the other 20+ legions? Who were they? What were they called? There is absolutely no record of them, of their composition, or what numbers or names they had....or even IF they had either. This 'supposes' that the Roman military was 'evolving' over a long period, from a composition standpoint, from a weapons and armor standpoint, and in terms of how the Romans referred to them.

So, our structure of the Roman military tries to imitate the structure that existed before and up to Augustus....which defines the 'Imperial Age'. And it is just as 'vague' in a sense. Only the KNOWN named and numbered Legions are available before the Imperial Reforms, and yet any number of the Very Early Legions (who represent the vast majority of Legions that existed before Augustus time) are available. And, by and large, you should be holding many of the Imperial Legion recruitment areas by that time.

In deferrence to some players, however, I'll probably make more of the Imperials available in Italy in RS2. But it's not going to be a 'Legion-fest' everywhere, because I think this makes it too easy for the Roman player.

And to quite honest, I am a diehard Roman player, and I have always been tired of always winning. I want a challenge. I want to be sometimes challenged to point of losing....I want to even sometimes LOSE! I want vicious Celts and Germans who kick the crap out of me, and I want to face situations where I may have to retreat and begin again if I am even able too.
But if I can recruit Legions everywhere, and retrain them anywhere I please, or be able to raise 3-4 of them in a given area just because I'm pressed by the enemy...then my feeling is it starts losing it's challenge and becomes 'vanilla' play with pretty skins.

[Captain Jin]

And to quite honest, I am a diehard Roman player, and I have always been tired of always winning. I want a challenge. I want to be sometimes challenged to point of losing....I want to even sometimes LOSE! I want vicious Celts and Germans who kick the crap out of me, and I want to face situations where I may have to retreat and begin again if I am even able too.
But if I can recruit Legions everywhere, and retrain them anywhere I please, or be able to raise 3-4 of them in a given area just because I'm pressed by the enemy...then my feeling is it starts losing it's challenge and becomes 'vanilla' play with pretty skins.

Thatll happen if you don't expand North and fortify your borders with Gauls near Massillia and Aventicum. In one of my games I didn't expand out that way and Gaul came flooding into Italy and while I was busy with them Macedon came knocking the other way. They never took Rome, but they were all over Aretium, Arminumum, Bononia and Patavium.

I like the recruitment system the way it is. It's very interesting. It was one of the biggest draws to RS.

[rory o'kane]

he's right. it will be a bit of a b!tch to conquer the whole map though!

[Revan The Great]

I can only make several pertinent points.

1. I, and to my knowledge no one wants a 'Legion'-fest, but the option to be able to conveniently move legions around. As is there are only three Imperial Legion provinces on the (Upper) Rhine where infact there were six legions historically. If, for example, I could recruit the Cyrenica at...Samarobriva for example, it would be the same as having imported that legion from whereever it supposed was...without having to take literally twenty years to ship it from a far off corner and never be able to retrain it. That's not to say I'd create two of the same legion of course! Strictly one of each named legion in existence at any given time.

2. The point about legionary limits is correct in the theoretical sense. Augustus didn't just create new legions out of thin air, he didn't need to. He did indeed have fifty at the time. But then we have people like Domitian, and Trajan who did do so. Why can't Emperor Revan do the same? Ultimately it comes down to an Emperor being able to, historically, create a new Legion whenever they wanted to but for some reason or another choosing not to instead of simply not being able to. There are times when I have the resources, manpower, and need to create an additional legion on some frontier but can't and end up having to find one in some remote place and take a few years to walk it over.

3. In the end, one thing has to also be realized and understood above all else. R:TW, and for that matter RS is not a history book. It's a simulation, a way to say 'What if' the Romans conquerer Germania? 'What if' Parthia was defeated centuries before the Romans ever got to the East, only to find one mega empire in the Seleucids that would replace the Persians as Rome's main rival?

4. I understand your notion of winning too much, of being able to lose, of actually losing. But...this is R:TW. It's a near physical impossibility for you to *lose*, you might suffer setbacks of course, but unless you're stupider than a trained monkey it's pretty much inevitable that, if not win, then you survive. At least as Rome.

That said, I intensely enjoy the mod and thank the team every day I play it, as it is. I'm just trying to make it a little better.

In deferrence to some players, however, I'll probably make more of the Imperials available in Italy in RS2. But it's not going to be a 'Legion-fest' everywhere, because I think this makes it too easy for the Roman player.

And thank you for that deference!

[rory o'kane]

I can only make several pertinent points.

1. I, and to my knowledge no one wants a 'Legion'-fest, but the option to be able to conveniently move legions around. As is there are only three Imperial Legion provinces on the (Upper) Rhine where infact there were six legions historically. If, for example, I could recruit the Cyrenica at...Samarobriva for example, it would be the same as having imported that legion from whereever it supposed was...without having to take literally twenty years to ship it from a far off corner and never be able to retrain it. That's not to say I'd create two of the same legion of course! Strictly one of each named legion in existence at any given time.

2. The point about legionary limits is correct in the theoretical sense. Augustus didn't just create new legions out of thin air, he didn't need to. He did indeed have fifty at the time. But then we have people like Domitian, and Trajan who did do so. Why can't Emperor Revan do the same? Ultimately it comes down to an Emperor being able to, historically, create a new Legion whenever they wanted to but for some reason or another choosing not to instead of simply not being able to. There are times when I have the resources, manpower, and need to create an additional legion on some frontier but can't and end up having to find one in some remote place and take a few years to walk it over.

!

Out of interest, was the III Cyrenaica ever stationed at Samarobriva?

[GreatOne]

Aaaaah, so the buildings related to recruitment of the named legions ARE getting in.

[Revan The Great]

No it wasn't But it is just an far end of the spectrum example. Besides, whose to say that it *couldn't* have been stationed there at some point?

[rory o'kane]

well, it wasn't. who's to say that the Parthians couldn't have expanded their links with China, and gotten hold of gunpowder, and started using it by the 2nd century AD?

[Snake_Plisskin]

I think creation of legions should only be allowed in certain provinces where each legion was historically based and created, but allowing units to be retrained in other major legion bases. Is this possible ? not to recruit new legions ecempt the area specific legion but being able to retrain nearly any legion, as commanders would of been replenishing their losses from the nearest roman provinces.

is this possible with the rtw files ??

[rory o'kane]

nope, it's not, sorry!

[Squid]

To be more specific, you can only retrain if you can recruit.