Real cavalry charges: Instant kills, or morale shock?

[Faris ad Din]

I'm adding a bit of color coding to my longer sentences, as I sense that some readers may face difficulty assimilating them. The human mind works by categorization anyway.

This is a question to all you combat buffs out there, and even those with partial knowledge, and of course those with all kinds of opinions and perspectives, as we have few modern sources from which we can draw precise data.

Would cavalry charges create a great number of instantaneous kills upon impact, or would the effectiveness of cavalry in history stem from other factors? In our BC experience, we witness small numbers of heavy cavalry causing the nearly instant deaths of three times their number among the enemy. Even in vanilla we witness high numbers of deaths caused by cavalry charges akin to nothing else but the impact of gunpowder artillery.

The use of horses as instruments of war is a very ancient one but not as transparent as studies of all kinds of infantry weapons. So here's the question for those who have short attention spans and like to skip:

1. Do cavalry charges really cause instant deaths/casualties, or

2. Are they so irresistible that they cause enemies to panic and break, leaving them vulnerable to harrying?

(Apologies to those of you named Harry.)

So how can 15 Romanoi Bodyguards inflict 50 instantaneous kills on a well-formed unit of spearmen? The lances themselves are easy enough to explain; with the invention of stirrups, riders are able to transfer all of the combined momentum of horse and rider into the point of the lance (making for phenomenal PSI - pounds per square inch). But we may imagine that the lance may penetrate only a single target, at least armored ones. So how can we explain additional kills? Was couched lancing so accurate that we can guarantee that 100% of lances impaled just as many targets, even? The case seems more unbelievable.

There's the question if lances could reliably penetrate the (often armored)bodies of several soldiers in a row. But that's iffy, as you have to guarantee that all the soldiers are conveniently standing right behind the first successfully impaled target, and then the next if need be. What evidence we have today indicates that that is unlikely - reenactors still hold jousting tournaments and run tests. Rarely do we see shields penetrated by lances even when at full charge - and then lances often do not fully penetrate plate armor (although we have to concede arrows/lances often penetrate chain mail and weaker armor). And as opposing knights are charging each other from opposite directions - the speed is doubled, and given the laws of physics:

Kinetic energy = 0.5 x mass x velocity²

Makes for 4x the energy. Stationary targets makes for a scant quarter of the impact that jousting knights feel.

So in short... could the rest of the casualties come from the blunt impact of the body of the horse? Many horses have a weight of 750-1300 lbs. (destriers traditionally weighing around 2,000) and probably had a charge speed 20-30 mph. But... the body of the horse presents a much larger surface than the tip of a lance. Does the horse really kill people by momentum alone? Several ranks even?

Horses are a type of animal that would be easier to domesticate, according to the logic of Jared Diamond in Guns, Germs and Steel. They are social and group animals which humans can herd and attain a leadership over. When horses run over not TOO many creatures they can easily trample such creatures to death. So would the kills come from the trampling under the hooves, rather than chests of the horses, AFTER the charge lands?

This would relegate the role of the rider as to almost nothing then. It could be equally as effective to train horses to run in a herd at enemies for the purpose of bowling them over and trampling them (if you could pull that off). So the power of cavalry charges would not be couched lance, but rather the natural stampede of densely packed, domesticated horses.

I quietly leave the argument to the community. This by NO means is any request to change the mechanics of the game, I leave that for others to ask in another thread.

[aslanamca]

Yes,charge is a trick of medieval 2. I am sure that cavalry charges arent as effective as medieval 2 but it makes panic in infantries.

Also because of the momentum(momentum=mass x velocity),lance can split the armours of infantry.So it can kill so many infantries.

But in rome totalwar,If you charge an infantry from behind,you lose many men.This foolish thing has fixed in medieval 2.

[Keyser]

Stirrups aren't really related to the effectiveness (or not) of couched lances charges (or others).
They are very usefull to keep balance while mounted (or to mount a horse easily), wich mean they are more usefull to fencing while on horseback, or, more importantly, to horse archery (and indeed, they also permit a better stability and isolate the rider a bit from the movement of the horse if he push with his legs on them).

Apparently, the type of saddle is more important for the ability of the rider to use his lance without being unhorsed (as to the idea of the power of impact being strengthened by the stirrups, i am not an expert in physic, but that seems rather counterintuitive)

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/shock.php

A link about the topic.

As to the effectiveness of the charge, i have no idea.
I am not sure the "instant kill" effect is the most important, the disorganisation of the unit after the impact, the fear of being empaled, or cut in two, of being pushed and trampled, either by the horses or you fellow footmen, fear of being envelloped by the horsemen etc might play the most important part.

I've read that often infantry would break before the impact in modern times.

As to the usefullness of a herd of horse, i am not sure, a horse naturally will avoid a mass of men (especially a noisy and pointy mass of men), even trained i doubt horses will try to impact the ennemy.
They need the horsemen (and he is far more usefull than just leading the horse, he protect the horse while in combat (easy kill when stopped for infantry) and contribute his fair share of inducing fear and killing power).

[Aper]

sorry delete this message please thanks

[Aper]

Modders can balance the game mechanics of their work as they want of course, but...

In Total War games (and most mods) cavalry is a Weapon of Mass Destruction: THIS ... IS... foolish.
Just look how in battles from bronze age to Napoleon cavalry was used... moral shock on fatigued/unsure troops, and pursuing of fleeing enemies; and obviously kill as many men as possible, but most of the casualties usually happened during the pursuit, not during the charge.

In reality charge aim was definitevely to broken enemy's morale and formation, and cause mass routing

Sorry if I am a bit rude, and for bad english

[Tibi of House Anjou]

There was talk of something like this in the europa barbarorum forums I think. There most of the people were on the opinion that there weren't any big impacts because of "modern" tests. But that doesn't really prove anything. You can't test something today that was in the middle ages. A sword made today will never be the same as then. And if modern days horses can't charge a group of men, who says they couldn't do it back then? Every medieval source tells of the effectivnes of the cavalry charge. One of our great leaders Hunyadi János, won his victorys against the turks, thank to the heavy cavalry. Even the turkish sources say that.
Also one of my professors told an example of some swiss soldiers who tried to reenact the medieval swiss pike formation and they couldn't do it. But this doesn't prove they couldn't do it back then.
So I'm on the opinion that these charges were real indeed, and must have caused lots of casualties. And of course a good amount of panic and stuff.

[turenne]

During napoleonic times, charge made by the famous "cuirassier" which had in normal time heavy powerfull horses were able to disorganise important infantery square or line of infantry...the infantrman were fallen and has numerous legs and harm broken. When the charge was succesfull the "cuirassier" were passing throught the entire formation (ofen many regiments line of infantry and reforming their own line to charge once again...they could charge to 15 times the same line of infantery...to maintain their line and increase the impact they were not charging at full speed. the initial shock caused numerous injuries but was not able to kill a great amount of mens...the men panics and fall one on each the others...Most of the casualties were caused after the colapsed of line battle.

infantryman (four or six line of men) in total war are able to stop the horses...in real life with the horsed used by the cuirasier or heavy cavalry are very powerfull horses and can make their "road" throught a crowded place in runnig without any problems...you can imagine what its looked...when a thousand horses charged in a mass of men


i apologize for my bad synthax and vocabulary

[Request a new user name]

1. Do cavalry charges really cause instant deaths/casualties, or

Depends. However only a stupid commander would charge home into Infantry that is standing its ground. Thats asking to break the Horse's legs because it is slamming into a bunch of hard objects such as Shields, bodies, armor, etc.

This over looks the fact that horses don't like to bump into people especially when they are pointing sharp pointy objects at them.

2. Are they so irresistible that they cause enemies to panic and break, leaving them vulnerable to harrying?

Pitched battles are a rarity in this time. Most foes took one look at the opposing side and ran.

If battle was joined usually one side got freaked out at one thing or the other and ran, suffering massive causalities.

Victors rarely suffered as much as the losers.

[anaztazioch]

Actually, think what can an infantry do against a heavy horse and heavy guy riding it ?
The speed such "train" hits, puches infantry down, and after that, they atre just stepped on leaving them unable to continue fighting. In MTW its known as dead.
The long lances are not a tool for killing, rather to knock down infantry before the horse will have a chance to step n them.

Actually only infantry with weapons of longer range than cavlary had a chance. I dont like spearmans super effective. Spears connot be used to hit, just thurst (unless very well made). Swords can be used to thurst as well as hit/cut and are easier to use in combat.
Spear advantage actually is their use in narrow or tight spaces for long time, not against mounted units, where one thrust against chargeing horse will result in broken weapon.

[Aurion]

Huh, call me naive, but I always thought, at least with the heavier types of cavalry, that it was the trample effect, not the actual lances themselves that inflicted the most damage, especially with the Eastern types that preferred maces to lances..

Like, basically, a cataphract would maybe kill a guy with his weapon on the charge, but he'd probably run over or knock down quite a few more, given the massive weight of the rider, horse, and armor, especially if they break through the enemy line.

I'm not sure about Medieval times, but if I recall correctly at least some Renaissance-era heavy cav actually used lances designed to break on impact to that they could just toss it aside and switch weapons.

Edit: Dammit, I leave the room to get some food, come back 30 minutes later, and someone beats me to posting the point I was gonna make!

[Request a new user name]

Actually, think what can an infantry do against a heavy horse and heavy guy riding it ?
The speed such "train" hits, puches infantry down, and after that, they atre just stepped on leaving them unable to continue fighting. In MTW its known as dead.
The long lances are not a tool for killing, rather to knock down infantry before the horse will have a chance to step n them.

Have you ever actually rode a horse? Or even worked with one? I have as I own quite a few and train SCA Riders.

I will tell you straight up that riders will not charge into infantry squares as that is a good way to break a horse's legs or trip, assuming if your horse gets over its natural reluctance to actually charge into such a mass. Then there is the danger of tripping up the rest of your formation if you fall down.

Horses are expensive and only only used when the enemy is wavering and a charge will be enough to cause them to route or if you catch the Infantry on the march and not in battle formation.

Any other time and you waste perfectly good horses and trained men.

[ShayanMirza]

Have you ever actually rode a horse? Or even worked with one? I have as I own quite a few and train SCA Riders.

I will tell you straight up that riders will not charge into infantry squares as that is a good way to break a horse's legs or trip, assuming if your horse gets over its natural reluctance to actually charge into such a mass. Then there is the danger of tripping up the rest of your formation if you fall down.

Horses are expensive and only only used when the enemy is wavering and a charge will be enough to cause them to route or if you catch the Infantry on the march and not in battle formation.

Any other time and you waste perfectly good horses and trained men.

Ditto from another (though less relevantly experienced) equestrian. That's one reason horse archers figured so prominently in cavalry tactics in the BC regions. They caused confusion and panic amongst infantry which was then exploited by lancers, a tactic perfected at the Battle of Carrhae by the Parthians against the Romans.

On another note, lances weren't for knocking down except in tournaments, they were definitely for impaling multiple men at a time, or at the very least, one.

That said, would 40 knights fare well against 75 spearmen? In most cases I would certainly bet on the knights. The way M2TW formations and unit #s are, even big battles are really just moderate skirmishes by medieval standards, and I wouldn't be surprised if the cool knightly and cataphract units are way overrepresented compared to historical numbers. But where's the fun in a peasant melee!?

So in short, I think BC's balance for cavalry is grand except against high level spearmen, who should be better than they are at taking a charge. But they're already addressing that, so I'm happy as a clam!

[Lupu]

And dead, or fallen horse, but that still will fall, and slide breaking up the formation.

[Ahiga]

Can't comment on the historical nature, but Strelac & grandviz have been at work with the stats, and we are giving more power to the infantryman in 1.5, while still keeping cavalry as effective.

[Lupu]

How?

[Strelac]

In changes done for 1.5, we no longer significantly differentiate between cats and heavy horse charge. Naturally cat cav will feature better defense and armor, allowing it to stay longer exposed while in the melee combat, but overall charge bonuses are now more matter of unit - class (roughly tier standing) and factional bonuses. The mount type is only significantly taken n consideration for missile units, such as those riding ponies, where charge bonus is minimal or none.

Cav charge bonuses have been increased for all tier 3 and up cav, as primary role of the cav has shifted from "set it and forget it mobile inf" to new dynamic tool of war, where repeatable charge and well chosen targets will determine the strength of the cav.One thing that you will notice immediately is that professional spearmen units (roughly tier 3 and up) now can actually absorb the charge. They will still suffer casualties during the initial charge, but cav will not penetrate through the formation as it has been the case in previous release and vanilla. This will be the case for all types of cav charge, which allows you to use spearmen as they are meant for, block against the cav.

[maxstill]

i know that the spearmen are very strong in BC,but they should be even stronger (especially the militia ones)cavalry shouldn't be able to brake spearmen frontly,even with repeated charges

[Tail End Charlie]

What's with all the emoticons?

And I think only certain spears should get boosted specifically those of Armenia and Oman.

[Faris ad Din]

What's with all the emoticons?

And I think only certain spears should get boosted specifically those of Armenia and Oman.

Armenia and Oman? They have decent spear units - Armenia has Samnapah (480 cost 200 upkeep) and Oman has Dismounted Noble Lancers (680 cost 300 upkeep). They are not the Mobile Iron Walls of Ghazni or KoJ but they make a fair showing when used well.

The only problem lies in their availability - especially Oman (need Barracks at Citadel level), but that will be fixed with horizontal, rather than vertical tech progression come patch 1.5 or 2.0.

[The Cobra]

yes it's true every faction has it's pros and cons.