Iran discussion thread

[Farnan]

So I'm going to start this thread stating this up front. I'm a patriotic American and love my country. I know we have done wrong in the past but I believe the good we have done out weighs that in the end. I know the country is far from perfect, but I believe we can overcome the challenges that face us in the end. I believe America has the potential to be a great force of good for the world and I want it to achieve that level.

I'm also a supporter of continuing the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe pulling out will be both irresponsible and against our national interests and I believe victory is possible.

Now why did I say all that? Well its because what I'm about to say next:

I call for an end to economic sanctions in Iran, though not without two conditions:

1. Iran opens its nuclear program to the world and lets inspectors in with full access.

2. Iran ends all funding of Shia militias in Iraq and asks the ones it backs to lay down their arms.

Now for the exchange of having economic sanctions lifted (though not military sanctions) those terms are fairly light.

HEY PUT AWAY THAT IMAGE OF CHURCHILL HOLDING THE TREATY.

This move is not giving into Iran at all. The United States and the people of Iran are not enemies, are beef is with the government of Supreme Leader Khamenai. In this we have a common enemy with many in Iran. Right now the Iranian Government uses US sanctions as a reason why the economy has problems, and present the US as the great enemy. Something that Iranians must be united to face or it will conquer Iran. A boogeyman to remain in power. By removing the economic sanctions we show the Iranian people we are not their enemy. As the Iranian people are already disillusioned with their government this can help push them over the edge and help remove the Iranian government from power.

Anyways, economic sanctions don't hurt dictators, they hurt they people they rule.

[Senno]

So I'm going to start this thread stating this up front. I'm a patriotic American and love my country. I know we have done wrong in the past but I believe the good we have done out weighs that in the end. I know the country is far from perfect, but I believe we can overcome the challenges that face us in the end. I believe America has the potential to be a great force of good for the world and I want it to achieve that level.

I'm also a supporter of continuing the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe pulling out will be both irresponsible and against our national interests and I believe victory is possible.

Now why did I say all that? Well its because what I'm about to say next:

I call for an end to economic sanctions in Iran, though not without two conditions:

1. Iran opens its nuclear program to the world and lets inspectors in with full access.

2. Iran ends all funding of Shia militias in Iraq and asks the ones it backs to lay down their arms.

Now for the exchange of having economic sanctions lifted (though not military sanctions) those terms are fairly light.

HEY PUT AWAY THAT IMAGE OF CHURCHILL HOLDING THE TREATY.

This move is not giving into Iran at all. The United States and the people of Iran are not enemies, are beef is with the government of Supreme Leader Khamenai. In this we have a common enemy with many in Iran. Right now the Iranian Government uses US sanctions as a reason why the economy has problems, and present the US as the great enemy. Something that Iranians must be united to face or it will conquer Iran. A boogeyman to remain in power. By removing the economic sanctions we show the Iranian people we are not their enemy. As the Iranian people are already disillusioned with their government this can help push them over the edge and help remove the Iranian government from power.

Anyways, economic sanctions don't hurt dictators, they hurt they people they rule.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[Aziel]

Um.. the Carrot and Stick method just doesn't work on the Iranians.

[Farnan]

Um.. the Carrot and Stick method just doesn't work on the Iranians.

Why not? They do something wrong and violate the agreement, we just put sanctions back up. They refuse the agreement we make sure the Iranian people know they refused to have sanctions lifted.

[mrmouth]

Um.. the Carrot and Stick method just doesn't work on the Iranians.

Completely agree. Fact is, the hardliners are of a victim mentality, and it simply wont change until they are dead and gone, and hopefully those who take their place will be of the progressive, majority if Iran.

[Lord Consul]

Iran won't budge, they consider nuclear autonomy as a matter of national honour.

[Aziel]

Because the USA and other superpowers already tried it.

[Joker85]

If they opened up for inspections, it would be revealed that they had been lying all along about wanting nuclear technology for peaceful means only.

It would basically make them look like fools and worse weak. The government would never agree to that. Even if we made the offer they would just spin it as "we will never be bribed or coerced into giving up our rights" and make excuses to reject it.

[NakedBarbarian2]

I think if anything if America wants to create change in the Middle East, its gonna have to take down the Iranians as well - Iraq and Afghanistan will continue to improve only slowly if the IRanians continue to be able to support sub national groups in said countries.

Ofcoarse all easier said than done - preferably Iran will attack Israel giving good reason to invade.

BTW im not american nor pro american-just a realist

[Farnan]

When?

Anyways the goal is not merely to be buddy up with Iran, the goal is to break the Iranian government's hold on its people by showing the people they don't need them to protect them from us.

To Joker: That works too, we set up websites in Farsi and have that offer go through all the media. The Iranian people will hear about it and I doubt it will help the Iranian government domestically and may be used to show that we are not the enemy of the Iranian people.

[Aziel]

When?

Anyways the goal is not merely to be buddy up with Iran, the goal is to break the Iranian government's hold on its people by showing the people they don't need them to protect them from us.

To Joker: That works too, we set up websites in Farsi and have that offer go through all the media. The Iranian people will hear about it and I doubt it will help the Iranian government domestically and may be used to show that we are not the enemy of the Iranian people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/12/politics/12iran.html

[Farnan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/12/politics/12iran.html

Letting them in the WTO and possible a few spare parts doesn't really come down as a major deal does it?

Plus the sabre rattling sort of drowned that out. Cut the sabre rattling, they know we'll strike if we find a nuclear program. We don't need to say it, the sabre rattling is playing into the hands of the Iranian government.

[Thanatos]

Just blow up the factories and warehouses. No need to invade Iran.

[tilly1632]

Just blow up the factories and warehouses. No need to invade Iran.

Do ut des !
Just blow up some american buildings in revenge - no need to in invade America.

[Sidmen]

If they opened up for inspections, it would be revealed that they had been lying all along about wanting nuclear technology for peaceful means only.

Or, thats the very reason we aren't dealing with them. Our government is so stuck into the whole "They're making Nukes" rhetoric that they'll loose face if the iranians aren't. So, rather than accept that possibility - we make outrageous demands on them.

Heck, I wouldn't bow to American demands to stop funding terrorists when america is still funding 'freedom fighters'.

[Joker85]

Or, thats the very reason we aren't dealing with them. Our government is so stuck into the whole "They're making Nukes" rhetoric that they'll loose face if the iranians aren't. So, rather than accept that possibility - we make outrageous demands on them.

Heck, I wouldn't bow to American demands to stop funding terrorists when america is still funding 'freedom fighters'.

That makes no sense at all. In fact if they really wanted to embarrass America they would open up and prove to the world they are not making nukes. The fact that they are unwilling to give such a big black eye to the US only proves that they are hiding the truth behind their program.

I am also not sure how telling them to stop attempting to build a nuclear bomb, threatening Israel, and killing Americans and Iraqis in Iraq are outrageous demands.

[Farnan]

They are not outrageous demands, the problem is how they're being presented.

Remember when dealing with the Sunni militia early in the war? We ignored the Sheiks who wanted to deal with us and we kept trying to kill them all which brought them into the hands of Al-Qaeda. While our rhetoric are "We're going to kill you all unless you surrendor" they were fighting to the death. However, once we started offering them incentives towards fighting beside us and started offering concilliation they took it and now they are our allies.

Same thing with the Iranian people. By offering this we show our willigness to work with the Iranian people. By sabre rattling we just pushed them into the camp of the Iranian government.

Also, the Iranians may not be making nukes but are trying to keep us sabre rattling so they're government has a boogey man, just like Saddam tried to make us believe he had WMDs to maintain his power.

[Joker85]

Also, the Iranians may not be making nukes but are trying to keep us sabre rattling so they're government has a boogey man, just like Saddam tried to make us believe he had WMDs to maintain his power.

That is a good point that I have not thought of.

The problem is that if it appears we are weakening our stance on Iran, Europe will as well as the US and France have been the ones pushing for sanctions the hardest. If that happens Israel might get jumpy and think they are the only ones left that can prevent Iran from succeeding. We saw what they did in Syria, they will not play around if it looks like we are getting nowhere with Iran.

[Farnan]

The problem is that if it appears we are weakening our stance on Iran, Europe will as well as the US and France have been the ones pushing for sanctions the hardest. If that happens Israel might get jumpy and think they are the only ones left that can prevent Iran from succeeding. We saw what they did in Syria, they will not play around if it looks like we are getting nowhere with Iran.

We will have to co-ordinate it with the EU which I don't think should be a big problem.

And if we are afraid the Israelis will jump the gun we say in no uncertain terms if they attack Iran without US approval we will drop all military aid to their country. We say this behind closed doors of course but we let that be known to them, and they will make sure they have our approval before they do something like that. Of course if they have proof that the proposed site is a nuclear weapons site we bring it up in the UN and a few minutes later the Isreali ambassador annouces the site no longer exists.

Right now its like we are aiming a pistol at a guy with body armor and telling him to give us the body armor and we'll give him $20. We have to lower the pistol (though not get rid of it) and then offer a fair price for the body armor.

[Sidmen]

That makes no sense at all. In fact if they really wanted to embarrass America they would open up and prove to the world they are not making nukes. The fact that they are unwilling to give such a big black eye to the US only proves that they are hiding the truth behind their program.

You don't "open up" a vital industry such as nuclear power to someone who considers you their enemy.

I am also not sure how telling them to stop attempting to build a nuclear bomb, threatening Israel, and killing Americans and Iraqis in Iraq are outrageous demands.

Since there is no proof they're doing any of this, it is outrageous. Its like me telling you to stop robbing banks - and you've never robbed a bank.

So far, the only thing that Iran has done is refuse to stop making its own uranium for use in its reactor - and future reactors that its building.