On a broad scale, what beats what?

[war91]

I want to use my men to the best of their ability, yet I find myself loosing men to others that should have lost, so I wanted to make a list of what beats what. This is what I think, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Heavy Cavalry beats light cavalry

Spearmen Beat Heavy Cavalry

Short spearmen beat ?

Pikemen beat All cavalry

Camel beats all cavalry

Light infantry beats ?

Archers beat Heavy infantry

Crossbowmen beat ?

Gunmen beat Infantry

Heavy Infantry beat Light infantry

Two-handers beat ?

Did I forget any type? If so, please add it in a post, along with what you think beats what. This is for me and all others that get confused with my what type of unit beats what.

[thatguy]

Crossbows perice armour, so i guess...

Crossbows beat Heavy Infantry and Heavy Cavalry

I basicly murdered a moorish bodyguard unit with just two units of peasent crossbowmen, killed their prince in the processes

[a0jc]

IMO, it all depends. I take it you're battling head-on because the rock paper scissors formula can be beaten with a little bit of skill. you even stated yourself that you should have won some battles that you lost. The cool thing about M2:TW is that there is a bit of randomness to it. Studying my battles and my friends battles, understanding what each unit is capable of determines victory or defeat. Example:
Through my experience, pike units are really not much of a threat to my cavalry. It's all about bait or flank, and a couple of good charges. Even in urban fighting. For pike units to do serious hurt on cavalry, they need to set up a pike wall. Cavalry, particularly Heavy Cav, do most of their damage on the charge(applies to most cav, not all). So do a charge on them before they can set a wall or better yet, flank them. Pikemen who are running and in absolute zero cohesion are prime for getting run down as they have little to no armor, but NEVER charge a pike wall and everyone knows why. I had a battle where a Mailed Knight and General's bodyguard unit totaled 3 Flemish Pikemen units and still had enough energy left take on 2 crossbows. I wished I recorded that battle.

To sum my point, your generalizing to much. Certain two handed units can slog it out for extended periods of time while some can't. Certain archer can beat heavy infantry, but are usually better against lightly armored LI.That itself also depends on who your fighting, where your fighting, and how your fighting.

[war91]

So what are advantages of light infantry and cavalry? I know light cavalry are useful for flanking and running down the enemy that are routing, but what is the purpose of light infantry?

[Khassaki]

Uphill beats everything.....

Try to be the defender and deploy well back. park on a hill shoot snot out of them as they get tired comming up the hill toward you.

Distract and run down their lighter units with your horse archers shhoot up their other troops from behind, the right to negate their shields and then charge down hill into them while hitting them from behind with you horse.

Pretty much my standard formula versus everybody where possible, as I tend to run lighter equipped factions like Lithuania, Russia & Egypt.

Moors are quite screwed as they have very little that counts, your urban militia is about it.

[thatguy]

what is the purpose of light infantry?

you knoow, i've always tried to work that out my self.
I think their good for distraction, or holding an enemy in place while heavier units flank.
Also a good meat sheld.


But you must also remember, now that units actually fight that alot of battles can simple come down to luck, overwhelming an enemy can actually work.
In rome i remember just making 5 units of Urban Cohorts and you can easily conquer the world with them, and killing enemies ten times your number.
NOW however, your soldiers actually fight, so if you maded five untis of your most elite infantry theres still a possiblity of them being overwhelmed by a weaker, yet far more numerous force and loosing.


So, realliy it is in essence, paper scissors rock, certain units defeat others, but right down to it, you also need to be lucky.

[a0jc]

So what are advantages of light infantry and cavalry? I know light cavalry are useful for flanking and running down the enemy that are routing, but what is the purpose of light infantry?

Urm, depends on the unit. Overall, I generally use Light Infantry (LI) as a vanguard of sort. They are good cannon fodder since they move quickly and are cheap to purchase or replace. In impromptu situations, their speed can be used to chase fleeing heavy infantry or other slow moving units. An occasion was when I used billmen to chase down some fleeing fuedal knights. This is better suited for Light Cavalry (LC). When sieged, I sometimes use my LC to destroy all their siege gear. In battle the light units can be used to disrupt enemy lines and then retreat as HC charge the enemies broken pikewall, spearwall, shieldwall, exploit the sides or backs of archers, etc. Or disrupt the shield wall for a devastating arrow storm, but this requires excellent timing...or not if you're that cruel. The light units in M2:TW have a variety of abilities. You just got to find clever ways of implementing them. Their worth varies and who their good against varies. Jinnites (sp?) are short range skirmishers and extremely well at it. Hobilars are cheap and professional LC, but lightly armored. Scouts are cheap LC with some anti-armor capabilities, but horrible morale(they have axes, i think). Italian Spear Militia are holy shite great. etc, etc.

[RollingWave]

it's not paper rocks and scissors. it's how you use it.

sword infantry beats spear onces, that doesn't mean you'll never engage swords with spears. spears can still hold them down pretty well and let your other units do their work or charging downhill etc...

in essense, you want to force the enemy into a bad spot / situation (downhill, tired , low on moral) to the point where even a peasent charge could rout the dismounted knights there are so many ways to accomplish that. so you really shouldn't be too focused no what beat what. but rather on what you want to achieve.

a. force them to fight uphill, or their cavs to fight in woods against your infantry.

b. tire them out before they attack you, the penalty for being less than warmed up is huge.

c. expose and attack their flank and rear. often the most decisive factor.

as for what beats what, all you really need to consider is...

1. cavs loses whenever they're bogged down in extensive melee. unless it's against archers or very poor infantries.

2. infantries win whenever they're bogged down in extensive melee

3. archers are always good when they're firing their missiles and not being attacked. but how they're positioned greatly affect their effectiveness.

[thatguy]

it's not paper rocks and scissors.

I was only drawing on how people say its rock paper scissors, cos its also a game of luck.

Of course, i consider it a game of
rock, paper, scissors, sticks, knives, dirt, log, fire, water etc etc.
The log can beat the paper, unless thepaper is on fire! heh

[SlappyBag]

Some units are obviously designed to counter other types of units, as they were designed to do that in yee olden days anyway and even now. A type of force presents itself so the other forces create a counter.

So there is an element of rock, paper, scissors, an extremely lose one mind you that can be over come with tactical and skill.

[dr_guerra]

Light infantry are just plain old cheap. It's a historical thing. They don't have to beat anything. It's like expecting that peasants will beat anything. They won't. They are army filler. A cushion or bumper, or perhaps just cannon fodder.

Light infantry is fast, but pretty weak against archers, cavalry, and heavy infantry. Light infantry is for combating light infantry, but not decisively. They are cheap.

This game isn't rock paper scissors like most RTS games. Heavy cavalry is pretty much the most powerful unit besides elephants. They can kill everything, even pikemen, when used right. Just don't charge head first into them, charge the rear.

The units are all dynamic. Almost anything can beat anything if you use them right. I've had archers butcher heavy cavalry. (bodkin arrows, not like peasant archers)

Altitude plays a huge role, so does where your troops are facing.

But regular archers are meant to kill anything that is lightly armoured. Crossbows are meant to kill heavily armoured units and lightly armoured ones, but due to slower reload and range, are less effective against light infantry. Javelin throwers are good at killing lightly armoured and heavily armoured units. Horse archers are good at killing light infantry, horse javelin throwers are good at killing infantry, heavy or light, and good at killing heavy cavalry.

Pikemen and spearmen, if prepared have extra damage vs all cavalry.

Light cavalry is great for taking out light infantry, archers, crossbowmen, artillery, horse archers, and chasing down fleeing units.

Artillery is good against walls and densely packed armies if used properly.

Gunpowder units are good mostly against heavily armoured and slower moving infantry, but can kill pretty much anything easily, but aren't so great in a melee.

Camels are suppose to frighten horse units.

Elephants are just damn scary.

Units with no shields are really bad against archers, javelin throwers and crossbowmen, but are usually good in a melee. They don't last as long, but have more killing power. Usually you use them to charge the enemy line as they typically have higher charge stats. (some infantry as high as 9, which is way higher than cavalry)

It all depends on how you use the unit. Where the unit is facing, the upgrades, the morale, etc etc. It's way too many variables. Is it snowing? Is it in the forest? Or is it sunny in the desert? There are just too many variations.

For fighting most factions, try to use combined arms. Light cavalry, heavy cavalry, some spears or pikes, some heavy infantry, and some ranged units. Possibly artillery.

[a0jc]

idk, i've had my peasants take out two units of border horses. it was rofl.

[crazyunits]

I use my light infantries to soak up enemy missile fire

[Cmdr_Sdxo]

I guess Halberds(even though they fall under heavy infantry technically) deserve a small "Captain Obvious" mention here :

They're useful against both cav and inf, acting as an all-purpose melee unit(some can even form a spear-wall that's not as effective as pike wall,but is a good replacement because I don't want to drag pikemen around as they're horrible slow in the formation they're any useful in) .

[FriendoftheDork]

Most light infantry are also spearmen and thus useful. The exceptions I can recall are Sudanese swordsmen, polearm wielders, and skrimishers.

light swordsmen are good vs spearmen, especially in deserts where they will tire much slower than heavy inf.

I'm not sure if town militia counts as spearmen somehow, but I have no trouble taking on mailed knights with them as long as you keep them from being charged (like defending a town square, which of course is their purpose).

Light inf are cheap, easily recruited in towns, and can hold a settlement against much better units. I recently won several battles against the french at Marseilles, using 4 units town militia, 30 saracen inf, 16 Ghazi (5 xp) vs 4 armoured spearmen, 1 spearman militia, 1 mailed knight and 1 crossbow militia.

The other battles had similar compositions, and my crappy light inf actually managed to get the upper hand by encircling enemy units, wearing them down, and then causing routs.

Outside sieges town militia's are only useful for soaking arrows and engaging the enemy so you can flank with better units. Oh and they can beat light archers in melee at least, if they just get close enough.

[Viking Prince]

No disrespect to the original posting nor to the other contributors.

That said...

Tactics beat units. Face to face tests are not the decisive factor on the field of battle.

Speed beats sloth.

Missile units beat non missile units from a distance.

Flank and rear attacks beat frontal assaults.

Huge economy beats a small economy. Remember replacement means no upkeep. (Related: High tech investments beat no tech improvements.)

Good morale beats poor morale. Great morale beats good morale.

Withdrawal to fight another day beats standing ground and oblivion.

OK. I am done with the rant. You may continue.

[The Count(er)]

I think you forgot to mention javelins beat elephants

[Orisian]

Crossbow > All (Except Horse Archers)

[Theseus1234]

when i use light infantry, i often use them as a buffer
for example: the enemy has very heavy cavalry, i can place my peasants in loose formation up front so they will absorb and stop the cavalry charge, which allows my heavier units to charge through the gaps in the fleeing peasants

[FriendoftheDork]

when i use light infantry, i often use them as a buffer
for example: the enemy has very heavy cavalry, i can place my peasants in loose formation up front so they will absorb and stop the cavalry charge, which allows my heavier units to charge through the gaps in the fleeing peasants

I would be careful doing this though, as the routed units means your army suffer morale penalties, the enemy's morale is strenghtened, his units may gain valour in a single charge, and those peasants could be good spearmen able to stop the charge in the first place.

Minimal losses is usually the better trade, but this tactic could be employed if you have less than optimal units.