How to loose a battle with 2 squads of armoured sergeants/spearman vs bedouin camels...

[anaztazioch]

Well this really pissed me off and proved that KoJ, aside from French accent has another reason not to play.

That is - what can 82 sergeant armoued spearmns (the higher tier) can do to 64 bedouins. Answear is simple - win. Unless you the 1st charge of bedouins will result in your troops killing enemy general... After the 1st charge enemy general died along with 12 other bedouins, than the AI retreated to make another charge. My troops however, instead for regrouping and preparing for charge, felt down on knees shouting "victory, we killed their general !" and before they got up the 2nd charge put down my man from 79 to 30 killing my captian, so my troop decided to retreat... before battle ended i had no troops standing...

[gaius valerius]

Cavalry - especially the charge - is a real killer in BC, you should mind that, try not to get wacked by a charge, etc, real dangerous stuff.

[Aurion]

Yeah, it dosen't really matter what kind of troops you have for that...the only way to really stop a charge like that is probably the Schiltrom, although you'll still take losses.

Just be grateful you weren't using Dismounted Latin Knights, they're so disorganized you probably wouldn't have survived the first charge.

[reavertm]

Just be grateful you weren't using Dismounted Latin Knights, they're so disorganized you probably wouldn't have survived the first charge.

Yep, I would even say that those armoured sergeants spearmen are better (better survivability) than Dismounted Knights Of Jerusalem

[Pallantides]

being a realist here, one Bedouin could kill a hundred Western knights single-handedly!

[Lupu]

First of all the price of 64 bado camel archers is higer than that of 82 armoured sergeants.
The reason you unit lost was because it was not ready for the charge, and instead celebrated, also it is wrong that good spearmen cant stop cavalry charges, elite spearmen kill of even cataphract charges.

[anaztazioch]

First of all the price of 64 bado camel archers is higer than that of 82 armoured sergeants.
The reason you unit lost was because it was not ready for the charge, and instead celebrated, also it is wrong that good spearmen cant stop cavalry charges, elite spearmen kill of even cataphract charges.

Bedouin camels not camel archers.

And yes, im more cmp[laining about that they were celebrating. Only Franks would celebrate in battle seing enemy charging at them...

[mastaace]

Bedouin camels not camel archers.

do you mean the bado camel chargers from makuria? cause they are meant to be a good heavy cavalry with a high charge rate

Edit: i never EVER had my units celebrating after having killed the enemy's general...they only celebrate when they kill a unit to the last man if i told them to attack this certain unit.

[gaius valerius]

First of all the price of 64 bado camel archers is higer than that of 82 armoured sergeants.
The reason you unit lost was because it was not ready for the charge, and instead celebrated, also it is wrong that good spearmen cant stop cavalry charges, elite spearmen kill of even cataphract charges.

When exactly are they rdy? Man, charges really are killers to my infantry. Lets say I have medium spearman (defense about 14-16) and they are standing in line, they still drop from like 90 to 20 in one charge by a medium cavalry unit. How to prevent this? Guard mode? anything? (apart from pikemen with spear wall perhaps). I really don't quite know how to deal with charges.

[Lupu]

When exactly are they rdy? Man, charges really are killers to my infantry. Lets say I have medium spearman (defense about 14-16) and they are standing in line, they still drop from like 90 to 20 in one charge by a medium cavalry unit. How to prevent this? Guard mode? anything? (apart from pikemen with spear wall perhaps). I really don't quite know how to deal with charges.

You need a really ELITE spearman unit like heavy khurasdanis, others seem to be useless

Edit: They are "Ready" when they stand holding their shields up in front, and pointing their spears forward, and not just standing around.

[Maizel]

When exactly are they rdy? Man, charges really are killers to my infantry. Lets say I have medium spearman (defense about 14-16) and they are standing in line, they still drop from like 90 to 20 in one charge by a medium cavalry unit. How to prevent this? Guard mode? anything? (apart from pikemen with spear wall perhaps). I really don't quite know how to deal with charges.

What i do, is having2 cheap weak units spread in front over my entire line, that there is a wall of about 2 soldiers thick in front of every unit, they absorb the charge and you can do a countercharge with your cavalrykilling spearmen.

[The Cobra]

What i do, is having2 cheap weak units spread in front over my entire line, that there is a wall of about 2 soldiers thick in front of every unit, they absorb the charge and you can do a countercharge with your cavalrykilling spearmen.

the first time i used a formation like this was while playing the Romans in EB where i used light infantry as a front line but with some spacing between them and the group behind them which has the first line consisting of spearmen then heavy infantry at the back, i find this strategy very useful to tire the enemy units which makes it much easier to rout them.
it should look somehow like this:


=============== =============

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


= light infantry
^ spearmen
+ heavy infantry

[anaztazioch]

try and use armoured speamsn vs bedouins. If you will make em stand and bedouins will amke full frontal attack, they lose.
Even with general bodygguards i have a hard time making lots of damage with full frontal attack vs guarding speaman squads.

[The Cobra]

It's balanced that way since in medieval warfare cavalry was your worst enemy.

[Aurion]

It's balanced that way since in medieval warfare cavalry was your worst enemy.

Yes.

Typically, the way to kill cavalry in BC is to force them into a prolonged melee, because they can charge you to death all freakin' day.

Pretty historically accurate gameplay, in my opinion.

Fun, too.

[The Cobra]

unless your spearmen are in a steady formation they will die easily that's if they didn't rout from the first charge.
when i use an army of bedouin camel archers i make them skirmish the AI till their forces are spread all across the map after that i simply charge them and they all start routing in a matter of seconds.

[Bull]

That's why you should use schiltrom. Infantry in schiltrom formation NEVER celebrate, even when it's safe to (and when they should, like after killing everyone in the town squre).

[Lupu]

If you want them to stop celebrating, I think guard mode helps, if not just make them move, just a centimeter forward, and they'll stop when in position again, or just countercharge, that is better than celebrating.

Also schiltrom sucks, it's totally useless because it offers the same protection as any spearman formation, everything that is good with it is that it defends in all directions, but it's actually weaker against cavalry charges thanthe line formation.
Becuse when the cavalry breaks through the first half of the formation, the other half stands with the backs turned to them, and does not defend in any way, at the flanksof the formation, if just one cavalryman breaks through one spearman he is able to charge down 3, or more spearmen from the flank, killing them.
Schiltrom can only be used with good effect when it is used with an elite spearman unit, so the cavalry does not break half through, but the elite spearmen normally can't form schilthrom, when fighting medium cav like bedouins schilthrom is OK with armored sergeants, but NEVER try to use medium spermen in schiltrom against cataphracts, that is pointless.
I personally don't use schiltrom.

[Faris ad Din]

You guys are all thinking about the wrong unit!

First of all the price of 64 bado camel archers is higer than that of 82 armoured sergeants.

Wrong

do you mean the bado camel chargers from makuria? cause they are meant to be a good heavy cavalry with a high charge rate

Wrong again

NOT "Bado Camel Archers," Omani unit (750 florin cost, 300 upkeep)
NOT "Bisharyyin Camel Chargers," Makurian unit (960 cost, 450 upkeep)

He's talking about "BEDOUINS," Abbasid unit. (600 cost, 250 upkeep)
Compare: "Armored Sergeant Spearmen," KoJ unit (680 cost, 300 upkeep)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

{abbasid_mounted_bedouin_warrior}Bedouins
{abbasid_mounted_bedouin_warrior_descr}The Bedouin people were used to riding camels to cross the desert for thousands of years, the camels are the only animals who can survive the tough weather and the sandstorms, and the camel warrior is a good weapon against the horses, since the camels frighten the horses.
{abbasid_mounted_bedouin_warrior_descr_short}Camel mounted warriors with lances.

type abbasid mounted bedouin warrior
dictionary abbasid_mounted_bedouin_warrior ; abbasid mounted bedouin warrior
category cavalry
class light
voice_type Light
accent Arabic
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier abbasid_mounted_bedouin_warrior, 32, 0, 1
mount camel
mount_effect elephant -4, horse +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_mounted
formation 3, 4, 5, 5, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 4, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 0.6
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 3, 2, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 2, -6, -2
stat_mental 9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 600, 250, 100, 75, 600, 4, 150
armour_ug_levels 0
armour_ug_models abbasid_mounted_bedouin_warrior
ownership moors, slave

One problem people haven't considered is the percentage strengths of the units. Bedouins (on Huge unit size) have 80 soldiers and Armored Sergeant Spearmen have 150.

However you were starting the battle with a unit of 82 Armored Sergeant Spearmen (55%) against 64 Bedouins (80%). A unit that took heavy casualties also took heavy morale losses. A full strength unit of Armored Sergeant Spearmen would have had a much better chance against the Bedouins.

Of course it would have helped if they weren't celebrating too - what would you have done if you were an officer leading them on the ground right then and there? Take the blunt end of your spear to their heads and your boot to their butts to get back into line immediately! Move them about one yard forward (Hold down ALT button and right click forward to keep same formation and direction, press R to make them run there) to stop them. If any of my troops were celebrating while the cavalry were withdrawn and regrouping I would have been horrified. GET THEM BACK INTO LINE.

[mastaace]

Wrong again

a question, it was a question! a question can't be wrong