I renounce my position on Israel. I was a naive, :wub:.

[Osceola]

I dunno where to put this, might as well stick it here.

First off I'm young, I just turned 18 last month, if you're gonna hold it against me fine, but at least I'm 18 and making this decision instead of 38 and making this decision.

I could go on in this topic about why I changed my beliefs, but considering theres many more morons like me on this site, who think the Middle East belongs exclusively to Arabs, who think the world belongs to Arabs, who think wherever there are muslims, they should be in power, (Chechnya) and who think this "Palestine" place is anything more then a political phenomenon, and that Israel is somehow some great Satan, when they at least have made something halfway civilised in that hell hole, just like the Kurds are trying to do, and like the Iranians probably want to do, and on top of that fought, defended, and died for their nation.

As for my supposed Anti-Semitism, I was never really Anti-Semitic, as much as I was disgusted that 6 million people rolled over and let themselves die. Then I remembered it was because they gladly gave up their arms to the government that would later butcher them, just like the Armenians did, and it looks like they actually learned from that mistake. While an alarming number of Americans, Brits, and Western Europeans haven't and probably never will, but who cares, thats not what this topic is about.

I don't care about the Palestinian troubles anymore. I think their getting off easy compared to the rest of the world. Imagine if all the Mexicans started practicing their La Raza hate speech. Then we'd have to deal with what Israel does. And you know what? Those are the original inhabitants of this country too, but in the end no one chooses where they were born. it doesn't even matter. We made something out of a country where the "rightful" native rulers were massacring less fortunate natives for their made up gods. But hey! They were native!

And the Palestinians aren't even native to that region, their part of millions of other Arabs, who seem to think as long as it's hot and theres sand there, that land belongs to them. Nevermind the freedoms of Jews, Copts, Assyrians, Hindus, Persians, and Kurds.. Last I checked Arabs didn't build the pyramids, Arabs didn't build Persepolis, Arabs didn't build Sumer.. no ones saying Israel's perfect, but justifying taking of one piece of land with grace of God and then taking that land from a people who think the whole damn world ought to be theirs by grace of Allah, or a very large number of those people think that quite obviously, it's easiest to see who's the lesser of the 2 evils.

In the end, Israel is a democratic nation with freedoms and tolerance. Quite a bit of tolerance if they haven't lost it and just exterminated every last Haji out there. Thats one helluva defense, in the face of what the Arabs have, none but "we were here first."

And as for Hezbollah, I'll admit I still have some respect for them. But not enough to support them. I really don't care who wins. I won't support them until they show that their interested in making a civilised, non-theocratic, democratic nation that respects the rights of others besides muslims, a nation that has some place in the 21st century as opposed to the 7th.

And I've had enough hearing the complaining from muslims about this and that. Any wrongs levied on you pale in comparison to the wrongs so many of your people inflict on us. If your not going to put up and shut up, and learn how civilised society works in the 21st century, then you're going to go the way of the Aztecs. And no one misses them. Except a few La Raza and Mecha , who are going to go their way soon enough.

A few months ago I challenged Azael to prove the Jews are native to Israel, now I realise, it doesn't even matter. Because I'm a German, and Germans aren't native to Florida. I never argued him because I couldn't. I didn't cop out, I just took my sweet time surrendering. So now I'm surrendering. And for all I know maybe you're right, a good portion of you must be native to Israel if you're not all dying from skin cancer.

Maybe some day the rest of the middle east will go back to it's other native peoples, just like it did to the Jews.

Thats all I guess.

[jankren]

Now we have heard your ranting. I hope you are satisfied.

By the way, this should be in the Political Academy.

Maybe some day the rest of the middle east will go back to it's other native peoples, just like it did to the Jews.

Why only the Middle East?

If everybody had to go back to their native place then we all would be living in Africa. Duh!

[Osceola]

Yawn. Yawn.

Wasn't talking about going to back to native places, else I'd of just self incriminated myself in my last couple sentences. Guess I should chop one half of me off and send him to Soligny, France and the other half to Swabia, Germany (whatever Swabia goes by nowadays..)

I meant in terms of power. As in giving the other people there (in many cases more native then the Arabs like the Copts) some say in how their being treated.

And Jankren, if you have a problem with my ranting, shouldn't of come in, haha.

[jankren]

Yawn. Yawn.

Wasn't talking about going to back to native places, else I'd of just self incriminated myself in my last couple sentences. Guess I should chop one half of me off and send him to Soligny, France and the other half to Swabia, Germany (whatever Swabia goes by nowadays..)

I meant in terms of power. As in giving the other people there (in many cases more native then the Arabs like the Copts) some say in how their being treated.

And Jankren, if you have a problem with my ranting, shouldn't of come in, haha.

The real Arabs are those people with dark complexion who live in the Arabian Peninsula. The rest of the Arabs elsewhere are the descendants of 'natives' of the regions where they are living in except they have been arabized. Example? The supposedly Arab Palestinians have similar DNA as Israeli Jews which means that they are nothing but Jewish Muslims so to speak ...

Wasn't talking about going to back to native places, else I'd of just self incriminated myself in my last couple sentences.

Then you also want Native Americans to be in control of USA, yes? Please say yes as to not making yourself looking like a hypocrite.

[Ältester der Motten]

Wasn't talking about going to back to native places, else I'd of just self incriminated myself in my last couple sentences. Guess I should chop one half of me off and send him to Soligny, France and the other half to Swabia, Germany (whatever Swabia goes by nowadays..)

The old Schwaben lies in western parts of Bayern and eastern parts of Baden Württemberg nowadays.

the German nation was not untied until 1871, are you going to deny there was a German nation for 30,000 years?

Uhm, yes. It were different tribes/people, you know. Alemanns, langobards, chatti, saxons, anglos (?), goths, swabians etc... not the tribe/people of the "germans".

The idea of one german people isn't much older than Napoleon.

[roy34543]

This isnt so much a question of renounced naivete as it is of newfound apathy.

[roy34543]

I believe the term is semitic peoples jankren. You know. That thing that hitler didnt like. But judaisim is outright a religous belief. With benefits if your born one.

[Senno]

American Indians have reservations of land that they control with limited sovereignty. Local issues are under their control.

In California (and other states) Indians have the right to open casinos and operate them. They are very profitable, and the Indians are able to become more politically active by lobbying.

It's not a perfect solution, and I know the long history of treaty violations. But it's a step towards Indian prosperity.

P.S. I am 1/8 Cherokee.

I also wish that Arafat had agreed to the treaty that Clinton had propsed before he went out of office.

[Osceola]

Why apathy roy? I spent a good portion of my time on this site spreading my own that I believed. Now I even have followers who stole my damn Hezzy sig that I'd delete if my signature was still viewable.

So I'm renouncing my former beliefs, and I don't wish to be known as anti-Israel anymore, if anything I'm pro-Israeli. If thats apathetic, then it. I don't care.

Also Jankren, you're boring and annoying me. This isn't a debate topic. ;]

[jankren]

Also Jankren, you're boring and annoying me. This isn't a debate topic. ;]

This is political mudpit. If you only want to rant without people responding than just write a paper about your rant and submit it so it will be shown on the main page of this site and you dont need to worry about people criticizing your opinion.

[Daneboy]

Why apathy roy? I spent a good portion of my time on this site spreading my own that I believed. Now I even have followers who stole my damn Hezzy sig that I'd delete if my signature was still viewable.
;]

I believe that, provided you created it, have the copyright to that. You can demand that the users stop use it or they will be infringing on your copyright.

So, simply ask them to stop using it.

[Axeman]

Hurrah for common sense!

[MathiasOfAthens]

The Copts btw are whats left over of the Byzantine rule of the near east... as Janken mention

The real Arabs are those people with dark complexion who live in the Arabian Peninsula. The rest of the Arabs elsewhere are the descendants of 'natives' of the regions where they are living in except they have been arabized. Example? The supposedly Arab Palestinians have similar DNA as Israeli Jews which means that they are nothing but Jewish Muslims ...

The region has become so mixed now that no one can claim descent from any ancient civilization of the same region. Except one group... the Basque in spain. Anyway, the kurds are also homegeneous but have adopted the muslim religion and have become Arabinized. After the Arabs swept over what remained of the Byzantine and Persian Empires in the 7th century they quickly arabinized the cities and regions they conquered, moving in arab populations and forcing non muslims to convert or pay higher taxes. It was a cultural transformation by the Arabs.

Certainly the great crime here is the arabs invasion of Roman territory the near east must revert to Greece.

[Pivra]

i thought there were Arab christians living in the Levant already, even before Rashid's invasion... am i right?

[MathiasOfAthens]

The Copts your right but they are not arabs so much as they are not from Arabia.
________
The Cigar Boss

[Pivra]

no, there was a Christian Arab Kingdom under the Byzantines' protection...

[MathiasOfAthens]

no, there was a Christian Arab Kingdom under the Byzantines' protection...

The Byzantines never conquered Arabia. However, if your referring to Arabs then perhaps your talking about the Arabian tribes that existed on the borders between the Roman(Byzantine) and modern day Saudi Arabia.

Protection.... sorta.. The Byzantines paid the tribes to attack other tribes and in fact act as a early warning system and a buffer from Arab raids. This system failed when in 622 victorious from the Persian wars Roman officials ceased paying the tribes on the border.

[christof139]

The Byzantines never conquered Arabia. However, if your referring to Arabs then perhaps your talking about the Arabian tribes that existed on the borders between the Roman(Byzantine) and modern day Saudi Arabia.

Protection.... sorta.. The Byzantines paid the tribes to attack other tribes and in fact act as a early warning system and a buffer from Arab raids. This system failed when in 622 victorious from the Persian wars Roman officials ceased paying the tribes on the border.

There were both Christian and Jewish Arab tribes, and this is mentioned in the Koran.

Many Arabs and Turks, whole clans and tribes both Muslim and Pagan deserted in mass to the Byzantines, while some Byzantines did desert to the Arabs and Turks. This is recorded in old Byzantine, Arab and Turkish sources.

The word 'Palestine' was invented byt the Romans and they derived it from the word 'Phillistine' in order to insult the Jews of Israel and Judea.

The ancient Cananites, Elamites I do believe and etc. are the original Palestinians, and then the Sea Peoples such as the Philistines came in and conquered and settled in the region. Then the Jews invaded and settled there during their exodus from Egypt. Most of the Christians in that region today are at least partially descended from these original peoples, as are a few Jews and Muslims. At the time of the 1st Crusade, most of the population of Palestine was Christian and they were ruled by the recent Arab Muslim invaders and conquerors.

Chris

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

wherever there are muslims, they should be in power

That would be ideal but wherever Muslims are in a majority, they should be in power.

I don't care about the Palestinian troubles anymore. I think their getting off easy compared to the rest of the world.

Living in a siege, having your country eaten up illegally (via West Bank settlements), living through apartheid and being called terrorists for fighting for their own land is "getting off easy"? Compared to what? Compared to the way Muslims treated Jews for 1,500 years before they were stabbed on the face?

And the Palestinians aren't even native to that region.

That's irrelevant. The truth is that at the start of the 20th century, there were 55,000 Jews and a million Arabs in Jerusalem. The Arabs were either driven out through the threat of genocide, through actual genocide and most flee their land due to war. Look at the population ratio now.

In the end, Israel is a democratic nation with freedoms and tolerance. Quite a bit of tolerance if they haven't lost it and just exterminated every last Haji out there. Thats one helluva defense, in the face of what the Arabs have, none but "we were here first."

Where do you get your news from? Faux?

- Is shelling a a densely populated civilian area "tolerance"?
- Is emptying an entire clip of an assault rifle on a 9-year-old girl associated with freedom?
- Is considering rock-throwing boys 'enemy targets' tolerance?
- Are illegal occupation of the West Bank, the plan to keep East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights consistent with "freedom and tolerance"?

I'm a German

YOU owe them land and apologies. The Arabs did nothing to them.

The Arabs who "threw out the Jews and kept all the land for themselves" lived with Jews peacefully from Rabat in Morocco to Baghdad and Sa'na (Yemen) until the illegal creation of Israel in 1948. They lived together for 1500 years. How can you say they're not tolerant? It was you Europeans who used to disembowel and do all sorts of vile stuff to non-Christians in Europe, we never had any of that.

[k995]

That would be ideal but wherever Muslims are in a majority, they should be in power.

islam is a religion, not a political movement. But the problem with islam is that there is no central authorite so any imam think he has religous as wel as policial power. And there is nothing or nobody to stop him.

Living in a siege, having your country eaten up illegally (via West Bank settlements), living through apartheid and being called terrorists for fighting for their own land is "getting off easy"? Compared to what? Compared to the way Muslims treated Jews for 1,500 years before they were stabbed on the face?

Siege? Not quit israel did invest a lot in west bank and gaza it was the fasteest growing middle eastern economy for a decade in the 70's. Up until the first intifada, started by the arabs themselves. Apartheid? No you dont seem to know what apartheid is. terrorists? Anyone killing civilians on purpose is a terrorist.

Colonisation? yes there you are right : israel needs to stop that and withdraw from most of west bank.

That's irrelevant. The truth is that at the start of the 20th century, there were 55,000 Jews and a million Arabs in Jerusalem. The Arabs were either driven out through the threat of genocide, through actual genocide and most flee their land due to war. Look at the population ratio now.

It doesnt really matter how many jews or arabs lived there in 1900. What matters is a solution now.

As for 48 and 67: arabs and jews fled because of the war, and some because they were being threatened or even killed. It happened on both sides: war is and remains a dirty bussines.

Where do you get your news from? Faux?

- Is shelling a a densely populated civilian area "tolerance"?

Is sniping a baby "resistance"?

- Is emptying an entire clip of an assault rifle on a 9-year-old girl associated with freedom?

Is blowing up a bus filles with muslims and jews associated with freedom?

- Is considering rock-throwing boys 'enemy targets' tolerance?

Is shooting from behin rock throwing boys "tolerance"?

- Are illegal occupation of the West Bank, the plan to keep East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights consistent with "freedom and tolerance"?

Is demanding the destruction of a country "freedom and tolerance"?

YOU owe them land and apologies. The Arabs did nothing to them.

Riots that killed yews date back to 1920's. Arabs rejected peace plans, when they declared independance arabs attacked them, again in 60's again in 70's,...

Arabs do own them. But it doesnt matter so do yews own arabs.

The Arabs who "threw out the Jews and kept all the land for themselves" lived with Jews peacefully from Rabat in Morocco to Baghdad and Sa'na (Yemen) until the illegal creation of Israel in 1948. They lived together for 1500 years. How can you say they're not tolerant? It was you Europeans who used to disembowel and do all sorts of vile stuff to non-Christians in Europe, we never had any of that.

Then why did they throw them out after 48? Those jews had nothing to do with israel. Why did they not accept the brittisch or UN plans? Why did they want everything and didnt want to share with those yews?