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  1. #1
    finneys13's Avatar *Insert Generic Title*
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    Default Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    A two-week conference, which opens in Dublin this morning, is expected to produce a new international treaty to ban cluster bombs.
    Over 100 countries are taking part in the Croke Park negotiations and it is the largest international conference of its kind ever hosted by Ireland.
    Efforts to ban the use, manufacture and trade of cluster munitions have gained momentum over the past year.
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    This follows widespread revulsion about the impact of these weapons that open in mid air, and randomly scatter dozens of individual bomblets over a large area. They can kill people years after a conflict ends.
    For the next fortnight, representatives of over 128 countries and international organisations will work on the text of a treaty, which it is hoped will be signed at the end of the year.
    Some countries will lobby to exempt certain weapons or for a long transition period. Other countries that use cluster bombs such as the US, China, Russia and Israel will not be in attendance.
    The Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin said he is confident real progress can be made towards the elimination of these weapons.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0519/clusterbombs.html

    The UK government is to join more than 100 nations in Dublin this week for talks that campaigners believe could lead to the most significant disarmament treaty for a decade.
    If successful, supporters say the negotiations will decide the wording for an international agreement to ban cluster bombs that ''cause unacceptable harm to civilians''.
    These munitions have been used in battle for more than 40 years in 30 countries and were last deployed by the Israelis in Lebanon in the summer of 2006.
    Cluster bombs are made up of a big container which opens in mid-air and drops hundreds of individual sub-munitions or "bomblets" over a wide area. They usually explode once they hit their target.
    The types of cluster munitions we intend to retain are legitimate weapons with significant military value


    Defence Secretary Des Browne

    It was the enormous damage caused to civilians during the month-long conflict between Israel and Lebanon that led a number of governments, led by Norway, to back the Oslo Process, which aims to come up with a treaty by the end of 2008.
    The Dublin meeting, set to begin on Monday, is the penultimate step.
    And while the UK government has shown a commitment to the process, it is strongly opposed to an outright ban.
    Instead, the government has stated it wants an exemption for the newest generation of cluster munitions.
    'Smart' technology
    In a statement to Parliament in March 2007, Defence Secretary Des Browne, said: "The types of cluster munitions we intend to retain are legitimate weapons with significant military value which, as a result of mitigating features, is not outweighed by humanitarian factors."
    In this case, the "mitigating factor" is so-called smart technology, which Britain says minimises civilian casualties.
    But Mr Browne's assurances have not convinced some governments and campaign groups.
    Problems can arise when the sub-munitions or "bomblets" are used in populated areas but fail to go off.
    If these cases, they can sit on the ground for years, effectively becoming landmines.



    Close up footage shows cluster bombs exploding

    Victims are often children, who mistake them for toys.
    "These bomblets are the size of a soft drink can or tennis ball and spread hundreds of metal fragments that tear apart flesh and sever limbs," said Thomas Nash, of the Cluster Munition Coalitions (CMC), an umbrella organisation for a number of anti-CM charities.
    "As if that weren't bad enough, cluster bombs consistently leave deadly duds on the battlefield that act like landmines. This problem not only affects lives but also shatters livelihoods because the unexploded cluster bombs make it dangerous or impossible to use land."
    Britain got rid of its most unreliable sub-munitions - the RBL 755 and the multi-launch rocket system M26 munitions - last year.
    However, it chose to keep "smart" sub-munitions like the M85, last used in Iraq in 2003, because they contain self-destruct mechanisms.
    Mr Browne said this technology significantly ''reduces the risk of harm to civilians''.
    The government points to tests that suggest failure rates are as low as 2%.
    Contrary evidence
    Campaign groups strongly dispute this figure, saying those tests were carried out by the manufacturers themselves.
    "Claims by the UK that cluster munitions have a 2% failure rate are not convincing at all, in fact the evidence shows they're untenable," said the CMC's Mr Nash.
    "Research in Lebanon, undertaken by experts including the Norwegian defence research establishment, which itself used to conduct tests of self-destructing cluster munitions, showed the failure rate was more like 10%.
    "The UN team responsible for the clearance in Lebanon have supported these findings."
    Figures from the charity Landmine Action estimate that in 2003, the UK and US used around 13,000 cluster munitions containing an estimated 1.8 million to 2 million sub-munitions.
    Ten years after it championed a treaty banning landmines, the UK has a chance to do the same with cluster bombs - but instead it is spinning a cluster bomb con


    Simon Conway
    Landmine Action


    The CMC says cluster munitions caused more civilian casualties in Iraq in 2003 than any other weapon.
    The government insists that its testing is accurate but said it takes the various studies seriously.
    A number of leading charities, including Oxfam, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have also accused the UK government of attempting to re-name one of its two remaining cluster bombs in an effort to get around any future ban.
    In a joint statement they said: "As recently as 26 November 2006, the government listed the CRV-7 rocket system, which can deliver 171 M73 bomblets, as a cluster munitions. But on 16 July 2007…the government said the CRV-7 was no longer a cluster bomb."
    'Cynical move'
    Simon Conway, director of Landmine Action, accused Britain of "a deeply cynical move".

    Cluster bombs were used most recently by Israel in 2006

    "Ten years after it championed a treaty banning landmines, the UK has a chance to do the same with cluster bombs - but instead it is spinning a cluster bomb con."
    The government said each CRV-7 rocket contained nine M73 bomblets, not 171.
    The government stated it was not a cluster munition because of its "direct-fire capability, a small defined "footprint" and because each rocket contains only nine bomblets.
    "Taken together…it is not likely to pose an unacceptable post-conflict humanitarian risk," a spokesman said.
    As the Dublin talks kick off, the next two weeks will undoubtedly prove a diplomatic assault course, as governments seek to grapple with, stumble over or simply avoid the thorny issues of exemptions, definitions and timetables.
    From the point of view of campaigners, anything less than a total ban would fail to protect the very civilians that the treaty is supposed to save.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7407564.stm

    I see that US, China, Russia and Israel are just ignoring this conference and the UK are using excuses to get around a ban, so in the end it will make not much difference, like the land-mine ban, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

    So does anyone actually think we should allow cluster bombs to used in war? Or maybe just use the modern versions, which still have a 10% failure rate which leaves duds that act like land-mines?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    To be fair, first world nations don't use land mines. Cluster munitions on the other hand are too damn useful to be got rid of

  3. #3
    finneys13's Avatar *Insert Generic Title*
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Many first world haven't banned land-mines, they still produce them, even if they don't use them.

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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    it's all and nice to make rules banning which and/or whatever weapons, but in the end, war is all about killing/maiming people ie your enemy, not trying to control a riot with tear gas.
    personally, i think it'd be great if they did away with land mines and chem/bio weapons and cluster mines but i doubt it'll ever happen. they're too damn effective.

  5. #5
    Senno's Avatar C'est la Vie.
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Personally, i think it'd be great if they did away with land mines and chem/bio weapons and cluster mines
    This would be a good start towards ending civilian casualties in wars.

    The work done developing "smart bombs" is partially for that purpose as well.

    Unfortunately, wars will probably never end and we must have some weaponry systems to fight them.

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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    About ing time.
    Cluster bombs don't have any use except to remain in the ground and explode months, years after they were dropped meaning the only intent is too harm the civilians population and anyone who tries to rebuild.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Smart move to disarm ourselfs from all good cheap antipersonel weapons, in future we'll shot the terrorists or chinese infantry hordes with 10 milion dollar worth guided weaponary, preferably one by one... I geuss that woud be proportionate and fair enough.




  8. #8
    King Edward III's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    I laught when I saw the UK bit.
    Last edited by King Edward III; May 19, 2008 at 07:37 AM.
    According to the Theory of War, which teaches that the best way to avoid the inconvenience of war is to pursue it away from your own country, it is more sensible for us to fight our notorious enemy in his own realm, with the joint power of our allies, than it is to wait for him at our own doors.

    - King Edward III, 1339

  9. #9

    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Cluster bombs don't have any use except to remain in the ground and explode months, years after they were dropped meaning the only intent is too harm the civilians population and anyone who tries to rebuild.
    You know that's not true.
    To be fair, first world nations don't use land mines. Cluster munitions on the other hand are too damn useful to be got rid of
    Anti-tank mines are found in the arsenal of practically all first world nations.
    Last edited by Norge; May 19, 2008 at 07:32 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Norge View Post
    You know that's not true.
    Perhaps not entirely but all we've seen them do is maim.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralLee View Post
    Or they are far more effective than conventional bombs against large numbers of personnel and equipment, and thats why this initiative will probably fail.
    Well then when we have a war with China or Russia, we'll get them out. But here is no use for them in the current wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    But except for purely military targets far away from any civilians, I think they should be banned.
    I agree, nowhere in civilian areas or towns, only in deserts, battlefields, airfields, ships etc.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Perhaps not entirely but all we've seen them do is maim.
    That's also not true. For example, they've been used effectively against those Iranian speed boats some people seem to have such a hard on for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hahahaha David Deas
    Thinking about it some more, perhaps losing to the the Jags and the Colts really will come as a complete surprise to you.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    About ing time.
    Cluster bombs don't have any use except to remain in the ground and explode months, years after they were dropped meaning the only intent is too harm the civilians population and anyone who tries to rebuild.
    Or they are far more effective than conventional bombs against large numbers of personnel and equipment, and thats why this initiative will probably fail.



    Try replacing that with a 500 pound bomb.
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  13. #13
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    About ing time.
    Cluster bombs don't have any use except to remain in the ground and explode months, years after they were dropped meaning the only intent is too harm the civilians population and anyone who tries to rebuild.
    I believe certain cluster bombs can also be used to disable airfields.

    But except for purely military targets far away from any civilians, I think they should be banned.



  14. #14
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Just did an Arms Control module on this. This shows a new form of civillian agenda setting and securitisation process. Single fuse cluster munitions should be banned i believe. Double fused munitions are more expensive, but militarily more effective. Proposing switching to double fused would get the US onside then progress for a complete ban could go from there.




  15. #15

    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    It should be banned altogether. or a better design which ensures detonation of all cluster bombs ; or some kind of time kill switch if they dont go off after a certain time the fuse dissolves or something "P

  16. #16

    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    As with the mine treaty, any country that might actually rely on these weapons to help them win a war (ie, every major military power in the world) will ignore it while the rest pretend they are accomplishing something major.

    But I look forward to knowing that if Denmark and Italy ever go to war against each other they won't be using cluster bombs.

  17. #17
    mocker's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Joker85 View Post
    As with the mine treaty, any country that might actually rely on these weapons to help them win a war (ie, every major military power in the world) will ignore it while the rest pretend they are accomplishing something major.

    But I look forward to knowing that if Denmark and Italy ever go to war against each other they won't be using cluster bombs.
    Well, saying that a ban would be without its effect isn't entirely true.
    Sure, the signing countries aren't necessarily engaged in war as per now, but many of these nations could be hosting ammo production.
    I know there has been production of cluster bombs in Norway, for one.


  18. #18
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    ban the use of cluster bombs in civilian area's sure. but they are pritty damn useful when trying to hit large or moveing targets.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Used against Iranian speedboats?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Cluster Bomb Banning Conference

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Used against Iranian speedboats?
    Yes.
    (Patron of Lord Rahl)











    Quote Originally Posted by Hahahaha David Deas
    Thinking about it some more, perhaps losing to the the Jags and the Colts really will come as a complete surprise to you.

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