View Poll Results: How do we deal with 'forgotten' Nazis?

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  • Let nature deal with em' and let's forget about it

    41 36.61%
  • We should exercise pressure but not try to forcefully extradite old men, unless they are undoubtedly guilty.

    10 8.93%
  • Careful investigation and examination of the facts. Lets not be blinded by emotions.

    29 25.89%
  • Whether it happened yesterday or sixty years ago, they are still guilty. All stops must be pulled out!

    32 28.57%
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Thread: Wanted: The last Nazis

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  1. #1

    Default Wanted: The last Nazis

    Wanted: The last Nazis




    They are accused of some of the worst war crimes of the 20th century. Now a final bid has been launched to bring them to justice before they die.

    By Claire Soares
    Thursday, 1 May 2008

    At first glance, the mugshots appear to be a gallery of roguish grandfathers, but the octo- and nonagenarians are the 10 most-wanted fugitives of one of the most heinous regimes the world has ever seen. They are the last remaining Nazis, and the codename of the hunt to find them – Operation Last Chance – says it all


    More than 60 years after the Nuremberg trials put the first of Hitler's henchmen in the dock, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre yesterday released its most wanted list of the remaining Nazi war criminals. The battle to bring them to justice is complicated by a mix of political apathy, legal wrangling, legendary powers of evasion and what Nazi-hunters term "misplaced sympathy" for the craggy-faced men in their twilight years.

    "They are old, and the natural tendency is to be sympathetic toward people when they reach a certain age, but the passage of time in no way diminishes the guilt of the perpetrators," said Efraim Zuroff, the Jerusalem-based director of the Wiesenthal Centre. "If we were to put a chronological limit on prosecution, we would basically be saying you can get away with genocide."

    The top target is Aribert Heim, now 93. Jewish prisoners at Mauthausen concentration camp probably knew better him as "Doctor Death". The Austrian medic would inject petrol and an array of different poisons straight into the hearts of his so-called patients to see which killed them fastest. He once removed the tattooed flesh of a prisoner and turned it into soft furnishings for his commandant's flat.

    An 18-year-old Jewish footballer and swimmer who was sent to Heim with an inflammation of the foot was knocked out, castrated and then decapitated. His head was boiled to remove the flesh and his skull was put on display. "[Heim] needed the head because of its perfect teeth," testified one hospital worker at the camp, according to an arrest warrant uncovered by the Associated Press news agency.

    Although the hunt for the fugitives continues, the race is on to bring them to justice before they die. Conscious of the ticking clock, Mr Zuroff will launch a media blitz in South America this summer, airing adverts there for the first time which publicise the $485,000 (£245,000) reward offered for Heim's arrest.

    Heim has been on the run since 1962 when, happily married and working as a gynaecologist in the West German town of Baden-Baden, he was tipped off that his arrest was imminent. Proof that he is still alive after all these years may be the €1m (£785,000) sitting in a Berlin bank account, which would probably have been claimed by his family if he were dead. The best guess now is that the doctor is in either in Chile, where his daughter lives, or Argentina – a favoured destination for fleeing Nazis, including the architect of the Holocaust, Adolf Eichmann, and another lover of ghoulish medical experiments, Josef Mengele.

    It is only Heim whose whereabouts are unknown. For the other nine suspects, Mr Zuroff rattles off a string of house numbers and street names in cities around the world – from Klagenfurt in Austria to Perth, Australia. In these cases, the biggest problem is a lack of political will. John Demjanjuk, a Ukrainian emigré, was extradited from the US to Israel in 1986 and sentenced to death for allegedly being the Treblinka camp guard "Ivan the Terrible". But Israel's Supreme Court overturned the ruling and released him. He is now fighting deportation from America.

    "Some countries don't have the guts or the courage to prosecute and punish," sighs Mr Zuroff. "Nazi war criminals are not serial killers. They are not likely to murder again and the governments basically know that in a few years they will pass away."
    Take Sandor Kepiro, who is No 3 on the list. Now aged 93, he was among Hungarian officers alleged to have carried out a three-day massacre of more than 1,000 mostly Jewish people on the banks of the Danube in Serbia. He was convicted in 1944 but was pardoned and moved to Austria. In 1946, he was convicted again – in absentia – and decided to flee further afield, this time to Argentina.

    Half a century later, he slipped secretly back into his homeland after being assured he would not face punishment. But when he was discovered living in Budapest in 2006, there was a public outcry. No decision has been made on whether he will stand trial.

    Hungary is one of nine countries to be given a "failing" grade in the Wiesenthal Centre's annual scorecard. Sweden is another; lambasted for its blanket refusal to investigate Nazi-era crimes, because of a statute of limitations which kicks in at 25 years for all acts of murder, including genocide.

    Another is Australia; accused of being too slow in processing the extradition of most-wanted Nazi No 7, Charles Zentai.

    "For three years, they let this guy play games in court," says Mr Zuroff. "When you are talking about three years for someone who is in his 80s, that is a long time and could, effectively, help him elude justice."

    Mr Zentai, now 86 and living in a Perth suburb, is accused of beating an 18-year-old called Peter Balazs to death when he caught him riding a Budapest tram without wearing a yellow star to identify himself as a Jew. Mr Zentai denies the charges and has been fighting extradition since 2005. Last week, he lost a constitutional challenge against state magistrates ruling on his case. His family claims the incriminating witness testimony came from confessions beaten out of soldiers. They say that he stands little chance of a fair trial in Hungary, should extradition go ahead.

    Mr Zentai's son, Ernie Steiner, said yesterday: "I know my father was never a Nazi, so why is a Nazi-hunter hunting my father? He was never involved in the Holocaust or the mistreatment of Jews. So this is a complete fabrication."

    He dismissed the Most Wanted List as the theatrics of a bounty hunter, saying: "Of course there's a principle of justice but, when you've got the wrong bloke, you are persecuting an innocent man."
    One who didn't get away

    The case of the "Executioner of Bolzano" has been a triumph for Nazi hunters. Michael Seifert tortured his victims in the north Italian concentration camp using fire, broken bottles, clubs and ice-cold water.

    After the war he moved to Canada, working in a Vancouver mill and raising his family. In 2000, he was convicted in absentia and sentenced to life imprisonment for murdering at least 18 people but it was two years before he was arrested by the Canadian police at Italy's request. He began a long fight against extradition, which ended in failure this February when, at the age of 83, he was finally deported to Rome to serve his sentence.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Yep, some of them are still out there, and I'd like to gauge opinions on TWC on what is to be done (or rather what would you do). I'm of the opinion that no matter how long ago this occured, these men should at least answer questions or attempt to exonerate themselves such as in the case of charles Zentai. I appreciate he is 86 and feels intimidated at what he sees as a witchunt but if you were accused of these horrific crimes wouldn't you go to any lengths to clear your name? Or perhaps he feels the game is up? The cynical part of me will think the latter. Are countries biding their time to let nature sweep this old controversy under the carpet? Do you agree that there should be a statute of limitations after 25 years for genocide(!).

    This subject could well be at home in the Ethos but it's topical and I want to know if people see it as shameful as I do.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    get those sobs, justice is never late.
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post
    get those sobs, justice is never late.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat View Post
    I have a soft heart for old people generally but these guys deserve to be brought to at least a court hearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by General Erwin Rommel View Post

    Whether it happened yesterday or sixty years ago, they are still guilty. All stops must be pulled out!
    Quote Originally Posted by _Pontifex_ View Post
    It depends if they express true remorse for their actions. It was a long time ago, and time is said to heal all wounds. If they still retain all their nazi ideals, then bring them in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Maniac From Mars View Post
    Nazi ideals should have nothing to do with it - disagree with it or not, it is a political doctrine, like communism. Unsavoury (very, very much so), but valid.

    If they retain their anti-Semetic beliefs and have no remorse for their actions, on the other hand, then drag them in. By the ages they are now, it's probably easiest (not to mention cheapest) to just let them die, but justice should be served. Therefore, I vote for option three. Justice should be fair and impartial, regardless of the crime.
    If your judgements are to be considered "right" then what makes the judgements of these Nazis "wrong"? The further judgements of other people?

    Do you not all stand accused of the same fundamental "crime" they committed, of allowing themselves the right to judge what should be done with the lives of others?

    And do you not all justify their actions and justify their views by allowing yourselves to judge, and by allowing yourself to think that your judgements are right?

    Who is the final judge? Still men. Only men. A man decides what is right or wrong. The lessons of WWII go unlearned and the "crimes" repeat themselves.
    "Genius never desires what does not exist."
    -Søren Kierkegaard


    ''I know everything, in that I know nothing''
    - Socrates

  4. #4

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by eventhorizen View Post
    If your judgements are to be considered "right" then what makes the judgements of these Nazis "wrong"? The further judgements of other people?
    Nothing makes their political ideals wrong, but taking human life in such a manner is a crime. I do not advocate the death penalty for these people, and I agree that it is simpler to let them die.

    I lost a lot of family at the hands of the NKVD and Red Army, and yet I have never heard of someone being brought to justice for that. In fact, it happened so long ago that I'm not sure I'd want to see anyone tried for it now. I wish the same philosophy was more general - the time to prosecute these people has passed.



  5. #5

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    This stuff happened 60 years ago, many of the Nazi leaders were tried at Nuremberg, most were executed. I'd say we should move on and forget about it.

    Even if you waste time tracking them down and brining 'em to trial, it'd be hell to go through and try to pin 60 year old evidence on them. They're close to death anyway. I'm sure at least some of them are sorry for what they've done, I'd say just let 'em rot.

    Is it really going to prove anything taking them in? Besides, we need to stop letting Israel manipulate the Western powers anyway. What they're doing is basically reverse discrimination, I'm sure that most Nazis have already long paid the price for their crimes. I can't believe this is even a serious discussion, we really should be moving on.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  6. #6

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    Is it really going to prove anything taking them in? Besides, we need to stop letting Israel manipulate the Western powers anyway. What they're doing is basically reverse discrimination, I'm sure that most Nazis have already long paid the price for their crimes. I can't believe this is even a serious discussion, we really should be moving on.
    Even modern Germans are still paying for the Holocaust.

    Unfortunately, I cannot find the rather excellent BBC article, but I'll keep looking.



  7. #7

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    This stuff happened 60 years ago,
    How many years have to pass before suddenly a murderer ceases to be guilty? If someone murdered a family member of yours 60 years ago and then got caught would you say "Oh, that was a long time ago - forget about it."?

    many of the Nazi leaders were tried at Nuremberg, most were executed.
    Some were tried, some were executed. Most of the perpetrators of the Holocaust got off scott free.

    I'd say we should move on and forget about it.
    I say track them down and bring them to justice, no matter how old they are.

    Even if you waste time tracking them down and brining 'em to trial, it'd be hell to go through and try to pin 60 year old evidence on them.
    So we should let them get away with mass murder because trying to prosecute them might be a bit difficult? Human lives are pretty cheap to you, apparently.

    They're close to death anyway.
    Yes. So? A mass murderer is a mass murderer.

    I'm sure at least some of them are sorry for what they've done, I'd say just let 'em rot.
    In prison.

    Is it really going to prove anything taking them in?
    Yes, that you can run if you like but eventually your crimes catch up with you.

    Besides, we need to stop letting Israel manipulate the Western powers anyway.
    WTF?

    What they're doing is basically reverse discrimination,
    Tracking down killers is "discrimination"?! "Discrimination" against who - killers?

    I'm sure that most Nazis have already long paid the price for their crimes.
    By getting away with them and living into their old age the way millions of their murdered victims were not allowed to?

    I can't believe this is even a serious discussion, we really should be moving on.
    I can't believe people are seriously saying we should allow killers get away with mass murder simply because they have evaded justice long enough to become old men.

    Try them and, if found guilty, throw away the key.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post
    get those sobs, justice is never late.
    My sentiments exactly. It's never too late for justice. I voted for "careful investigation of the facts, let's not be blinded by emotions".

    Edit: Justice is one of the finest things in the world, there's no compromise on it. If some men are guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt, they must at least stand trial so that their crimes are proven or that they finally confess.
    Last edited by Primvs Sextvs Loverlord; May 19, 2008 at 03:21 AM.
    Death be not proud, though some have called thee
    Mighty and dreadful, for, thou art not so.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    I have a soft heart for old people generally but these guys deserve to be brought to at least a court hearing.

  10. #10
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    I voted

    Whether it happened yesterday or sixty years ago, they are still guilty. All stops must be pulled out!

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
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  11. #11
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by General Erwin Rommel View Post
    I voted

    Whether it happened yesterday or sixty years ago, they are still guilty. All stops must be pulled out!

    If I ever end up in court I hope to god your not my judge, how can you find these people guilty when they haven’t even been on trial or had a chance to defend themselves?

    I voted for option 3 careful examination of the facts, it’s not for us to judge these people without seeing any evidence we don’t know if these people are guilty or innocent.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswald von Wolkenstein View Post
    Many of them were already tried in absentia. In caught, though, they would be retried anyway.
    I've always held to the belief that a trial in which the defendant is present is at least a little more fair than a trial in absentia. Nonetheless, option three is best. If they are found guilty, sure, punish them. If they are not, let them go and leave them alone.



  13. #13

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    It depends if they express true remorse for their actions. It was a long time ago, and time is said to heal all wounds. If they still retain all their nazi ideals, then bring them in.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by _Pontifex_ View Post
    It depends if they express true remorse for their actions. It was a long time ago, and time is said to heal all wounds. If they still retain all their nazi ideals, then bring them in.
    Nazi ideals should have nothing to do with it - disagree with it or not, it is a political doctrine, like communism. Unsavoury (very, very much so), but valid.

    If they retain their anti-Semetic beliefs and have no remorse for their actions, on the other hand, then drag them in. By the ages they are now, it's probably easiest (not to mention cheapest) to just let them die, but justice should be served. Therefore, I vote for option three. Justice should be fair and impartial, regardless of the crime.

    EDIT: On the other hand, if it's going to be a battle to bring them to court, why bother? It's just a waste of funding.
    Last edited by Evil Maniac From Mars; May 18, 2008 at 10:52 PM.



  15. #15
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    they are all going to be dead within a handful of years, i'd rather spend the money that would be spent on chasing them down and prosecuting them on other things like social welfare or something.

    perhaps the israelis could use the money that they would spend on courts and detention for these elderly men on buying homes for 70-90 year old palestinian refugees who were forced to move when israel was being created. that would be a nice way of helping to stop the cycle of violence that these old men had a hand in.

    this screams of revenge rather than justice.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  16. #16

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    The Nazis weren't even close to being as cruel as the Japanese, so why not bring the Japanese veterans to justice as well?

  17. #17
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Taizu View Post
    The Nazis weren't even close to being as cruel as the Japanese, so why not bring the Japanese veterans to justice as well?
    because the japanese didnt do anything much to the jews so israel has no problems with them.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  18. #18

    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by antea View Post
    because the japanese didnt do anything much to the jews so israel has no problems with them.
    I just think that it's unfair that the world forgives the Japs when half of the world is still scarred by them. All I hear about World War II these days is Nazis, Nazis, Nazis. What about the Japs and how they were twice as cruel as the Nazis? The world should not ignore and forget about what happened to Asia during the war.

  19. #19
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Taizu View Post
    I just think that it's unfair that the world forgives the Japs when half of the world is still scarred by them. All I hear about World War II these days is Nazis, Nazis, Nazis. What about the Japs and how they were twice as cruel as the Nazis? The world should not ignore and forget about what happened to Asia during the war.
    the chinese were more interested in killing their own people - far more than the japanese did during the 1940s-1960s - to go after japanese suspects.. and now like for the nazis its too late, and many people would prefer reconciliation to the dragging up of 60 year old hate.
    Last edited by antea; May 18, 2008 at 11:14 PM.
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  20. #20
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Wanted: The last Nazis

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswald von Wolkenstein View Post
    Nonsense. The scope of the Nazi atrocities must be considered beyond that it's not the Israelis or the Jews that are obsessed with Jews, it's the Christians and the Muslims and there are a lot of Christians and Muslims -- if those who suffered under the Japanese had written the Holy book that they Christians and Muslims founded their religions upon, we'd be talking about that group instead of the Jews.
    yadda yadda.. i was explaining why israel wasnt chasing them, as previously the conversation had been talking about israel, not the entire western world.
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