The very beginning|CLOSED|

[IVIarkI2I]

Please stop this !!! we have in game fraction Slovakian Palatinate and we dont change it!! This faction is real....he is in map from year 1300
As you can see Hungary have light blue paint and matus have light pink paint

[SirPeacemaker]

@gracul
Only thing I can see here is your amaterism. But never mind. The best way how to deal with an amateur is just ignore him. You are not even able to understand what is Palatine and Palatinate. Never mind. It´s your problem not ours
And for now on I am going to ignore your empty words and unability to prove anything /and not to mention your contradictions/

[gracul]

In history we do not prove something didn't exist, but if something did exist.

[Antagonist]

a land ruled by a self-called sovereign without the acceptation of any legitimate European power.

I won't pretend to understand all the intricacies of this debate, but it surely must be noted that there is no such thing as a "legitimate" state or ruler at any given time, legitimacy is a concept bestowed by history.

Any individual, region or military unit which could be conceived as being subject to some greater power or nation is a "rebel" - unless their rebellion is successful. If you're some random minor lord sworn to a king and you rebel against him you are a rebel - unless you defeat him, kill him and install yourself in his place, in which case you have essentially legitmized yourself.

There is nothing necessarily ahistorical or "fictional" about portraying a "rebel" region as a faction in TW as long as they were actively hostile to their "master". Whether or not their rebellion ultimately succeeded is pretty irrelevant, because TW can only depict history correctly up to the start date - once you actually start to play it will inevitably unfold differently, and thus it is possible for forces or nations which were historically defeated or rendered insignificant to turn out differently. A rebel force which historically was defeated establishing itself as a state is no more ahistorical than England taking over all of Europe.

True, with only 30 factions there are more than enough nations which were significant to start including might-have-been possibilities, but if every mod picked the same 30 it wouldn't be very interesting...

I don't pretend to have precise knowledge of this particular area, but I feel the need to point this out whenever I see complaints that slots are being "wasted" on ahistorical or fantasy factions. As long there is some evidence that they existed as a military force with some kind of cohesion at that date, even the weakest and least significant "rebel" can still constitute a valid and "historical" TW faction, albeit a highly obscure and questionable choice given the limited faction slots.

Antagonist

EDIT: To put it succintly, a "legitimate state" and a historical faction are not the same thing. There is no reason why any group with active military forces and a desire for indepedence cannot be a historical faction, regardless of whether they became a great nation or were annihilated a week after the start date. It may be highly unlikely that they would ever amount to anything, but they are still not "imaginary factions" or whatever, just very (very very) obscure and questionable choices.

[SirPeacemaker]

Very wise words

[gracul]

I won't pretend to understand all the intricacies of this debate, but it surely must be noted that there is no such thing as a "legitimate" state or ruler at any given time, legitimacy is a concept bestowed by history.

Any individual, region or military unit which could be conceived as being subject to some greater power or nation is a "rebel" - unless their rebellion is successful. If you're some random minor lord sworn to a king and you rebel against him you are a rebel - unless you defeat him, kill him and install yourself in his place, in which case you have essentially legitmized yourself.

There is nothing necessarily ahistorical or "fictional" about portraying a "rebel" region as a faction in TW as long as they were actively hostile to their "master". Whether or not their rebellion ultimately succeeded is pretty irrelevant, because TW can only depict history correctly up to the start date - once you actually start to play it will inevitably unfold differently, and thus it is possible for forces or nations which were historically defeated or rendered insignificant to turn out differently. A rebel force which historically was defeated establishing itself as a state is no more ahistorical than England taking over all of Europe.

True, with only 30 factions there are more than enough nations which were significant to start including might-have-been possibilities, but if every mod picked the same 30 it wouldn't be very interesting...

I don't pretend to have precise knowledge of this particular area, but I feel the need to point this out whenever I see complaints that slots are being "wasted" on ahistorical or fantasy factions. As long there is some evidence that they existed as a military force with some kind of cohesion at that date, even the weakest and least significant "rebel" can still constitute a valid and "historical" TW faction, albeit a highly obscure and questionable choice given the limited faction slots.

Antagonist

EDIT: To put it succintly, a "legitimate state" and a historical faction are not the same thing. There is no reason why any group with active military forces and a desire for indepedence cannot be a historical faction, regardless of whether they became a great nation or were annihilated a week after the start date. It may be highly unlikely that they would ever amount to anything, but they are still not "imaginary factions" or whatever, just very (very very) obscure and questionable choices.

I'm not against any of your words, im against the phrase "historical accurancy" combined with something called a Slovakian Palatinate. The definitions of a Palatin are quite obvious, there is no Palatine without a King. Im not against calling it Slovakian either, i just don't want people to say ficition about a series of law issued to the Slav people that were historiclly called 'Privilegeum Slovacum' - because there was no such law, and if there is i guess that the people here can provide me with some books pointing at it. About the legitimate, yes you are right, it is dependant of history, however the Pope was quite more or less the one setting the rules for Christians in the medieval. What would happen if the Pope granted a crown to Csak? Who knows. For me, in order to maintain historical accurancy, instead of Palatine, Csak should be called a warlord, or a lord, because that is who he really was outside Hungary. Calling him a Palatine in the context of his own country is neglecting what he has really archeived. It does not interest me how did Csak called himselfe, he probably did not want to be raided by neighbours, in which case calling himselfe a Palatine (meaning hes land is still a part of Hungary) was a very nice trick. Has anyone ever heard of a land called a Palatinate, with its own army, with its own law, and not being a part of a bigger state, like a kingdom? Noone. They want to call it a Palatine, sure go for it, but remember then if its a Palatine, then its a part of Hungary.

[SirPeacemaker]

If this will make you happy I tell you something. I insisted to make the Slovakian Palatinate as a vasal of kingdom of Hungary. (Because Matthew became fully independent little bit later then year 1300 /but he kept all of his titles/ so it would be a player choise) But obviously it´s hardcoded and it´s not possible to make it. The only way how to do it to make an alliance with Hungary.

And if you are asking for other palatinates /you claim never heard/ try this one for example:
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-pf_hi.html
or this one:
http://www.swissmennonite.org/history/palatinate.html
And there is much more!

[baluro]

SirPeacemaker!
We are not against the palatinate, we are against its name. It wasn't slovakian in any way. That's a lie. There were no word of slovakia/slovaks/slovacorum in that era. You claimed something, you have to prove it with real proofs. Obviously, you'll say, that your proofs, that you said, are real, but they are not. They are based on non-proper sources. Show me the Latin text, where you found it.
And don't forget something: there is no need of offending anyone. Don't vaunt with your Latin knowledge or your historian past. Who cares if you are saying lies?
And by the way, then there could be more "palatinates" (I don't agree with this expression, palatinate means different in medieval Hungary than in the western countries) in Hungary, because the most powerful oligarchs did call themselves legal ruler over their territory alluding their former titles (like palatine and so). Csák Máté wasn't special, he had the largest army, that's all. The other poweful oligarchs did have the practice of court, had coins and armies.

[baluro]

Please stop this !!! we have in game fraction Slovakian Palatinate and we dont change it!! This faction is real....he is in map from year 1300
As you can see Hungary have light blue paint and matus have light pink paint

This map is not proper. Tell me, who ruled then "Transdanubia" and why dont you put it into your mod for example?

[SirPeacemaker]

SirPeacemaker!
We are not against the palatinate, we are against its name. It wasn't slovakian in any way. That's a lie. There were no word of slovakia/slovaks/slovacorum in that era. You claimed something, you have to prove it with real proofs. Obviously, you'll say, that your proofs, that you said, are real, but they are not. They are based on non-proper sources. Show me the Latin text, where you found it.
And don't forget something: there is no need of offending anyone. Don't vaunt with your Latin knowledge or your historian past. Who cares if you are saying lies?
And by the way, then there could be more "palatinates" (I don't agree with this expression, palatinate means different in medieval Hungary than in the western countries) in Hungary, because the most powerful oligarchs did call themselves legal ruler over their territory alluding their former titles (like palatine and so). Csák Máté wasn't special, he had the largest army, that's all. The other poweful oligarchs did have the practice of court, had coins and armies.

Only Matthew Csak had his own coins by the way.
And dont forget one thing and IMPORTANT thing. He /gracul/ offended FIRST my mates from university. But you cannot see it can you???????? How curious!! And I will tell you something. There is a book. Latin in medieval age. BUY IT !! STUDY IT !! whatever!! YOu will find a lot of SLOVACUM and SLOVACIA words omg. I am starting to regret that I did not listen my mates from university when they said - "Don´t waste your time with bunch of stupid amateurs! " Now I can see what they meant.
And if you have a problem with the map just contact them:
http://www.euratlas.com/history_euro..._map_1300.html

And If you are just not educated enough dont call me a liar. It sounds stupid.

[Antagonist]

I'm not against any of your words, im against the phrase "historical accurancy" combined with something called a Slovakian Palatinate. The definitions of a Palatin are quite obvious, there is no Palatine without a King. Im not against calling it Slovakian either, i just don't want people to say ficition about a series of law issued to the Slav people that were historiclly called 'Privilegeum Slovacum' - because there was no such law, and if there is i guess that the people here can provide me with some books pointing at it. About the legitimate, yes you are right, it is dependant of history, however the Pope was quite more or less the one setting the rules for Christians in the medieval. What would happen if the Pope granted a crown to Csak? Who knows. For me, in order to maintain historical accurancy, instead of Palatine, Csak should be called a warlord, or a lord, because that is who he really was outside Hungary. Calling him a Palatine in the context of his own country is neglecting what he has really archeived. It does not interest me how did Csak called himselfe, he probably did not want to be raided by neighbours, in which case calling himselfe a Palatine (meaning hes land is still a part of Hungary) was a very nice trick. Has anyone ever heard of a land called a Palatinate, with its own army, with its own law, and not being a part of a bigger state, like a kingdom? Noone. They want to call it a Palatine, sure go for it, but remember then if its a Palatine, then its a part of Hungary.

Very interesting, it's certainly true that characters shouldn't be given titles that they held. I guess it's rude of me to just barge in like that without specific knowledge of Slovak or Hungarian history, I just react to things like this sometimes.

Antagonist

[baluro]

Only Matthew Csak had his own coins by the way.

That's just not true. I recommend you the book of some of the greatest Hungarian Historians: "Engel Pál - Kristó Gyula - Kubinyi András: Hungarian history between 1301-1526" or "The history of the Fourteenth century" (in Hungary)

And I will tell you something. There is a book. Latin in medieval age. BUY IT !! STUDY IT !! whatever!! YOu will find a lot of SLOVACUM and SLOVACIA words omg. I am starting to regret that I did not listen my mates from university when they said - "Don´t waste your time with bunch of stupid amateurs! " Now I can see what they meant.

What is that book? A dictionary? OMG, you must kidding.
Guess what, my friends told me the same thing.

And if you have a problem with the map just contact them:
http://www.euratlas.com/history_euro..._map_1300.html

And If you are just not educated enough dont call me a liar. It sounds stupid.

You didn't answer my question, again.

[SirPeacemaker]

The book is a guider through latin in medieval age (it means explanations about words, sentences, rules of basic grammar, appearances of the words etc) . Century by century. And I have purpously looked on 13th century. Do I really have to explain everything like to children? Think man! Think! And study as much as you can. 12 books per year at least.
Ok kids the party is over. Time to go home. Whether you like it or not it´s gonna be Slovakian palatinate. Because it´s the most correct expression.
And by the way where did they make them? The coins? I am very curious about it.

[MCDS2]

just stop going on about the Slovakian Palatinate, it sounds like an intresting faction! plus i would really like to see it, it is an orginal faction and gives a diversity in factions. Can't wait for the mod to come out! + rep!

[baluro]

The book is a guider through latin in medieval age (it means explanations about words, sentences, rules of basic grammar, appearances of the words etc) . Century by century. And I have purpously looked on 13th century.

I couldn't find anything about that book, who wrote it? A slovak nationalist? Anyway, it can't be a proper source of history, you should know that.

12 books per year at least.

Is that your speed? Man, then you are a real historian! LOL

Ok kids the party is over. Time to go home. Whether you like it or not it´s gonna be Slovakian palatinate. Because it´s the most correct expression.

Yes, real clinker from a real historian.

And by the way where did they make them? The coins? I am very curious about it.

In their mints, Mr.


Look, I'm fed up with you. I'm obviously in cultural superiority, so I won't go on to this debate any more. It's senseless, and you are hopeless.

[SirPeacemaker]

I couldn't find anything about that book, who wrote it? A slovak nationalist? Anyway, it can't be a proper source of history, you should know that.

Typical reaction I have the book from Germany but especially for you I can look on the authors

Is that your speed? Man, then you are a real historian! LOL

Maybe it is because I can read???

Yes, real clinker from a real historian.

Yes Mr. expert for everything

In their mints, Mr.

But I meant the cities.

Look, I'm fed up with you. I'm obviously in cultural superiority, so I won't go on to this debate any more. It's senseless, and you are hopeless.

Never mind. Just study more. Go on a university and study hard. You can make it

[gracul]

And if you are asking for other palatinates /you claim never heard/ try this one for example:
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-pf_hi.html
or this one:
http://www.swissmennonite.org/history/palatinate.html
And there is much more!

These are Palatinates that were just a part of some country. Poland who i come from had a lot of those too. What you want for Csaks lands, is certainly not a Palatinate, because if you use the term Palatinate then it means that it should just be a part of Hungary.
And i am not against calling it Slovakian, because the majority of the people there were southern Slavs. Even if the people that were living there did not call themselves Slovak, they are Slovakian for modern historians, and for prove of that... well look just about anywhere.

[SirPeacemaker]

These are Palatinates that were just a part of some country.

Look what I have written earlier. We want to be as much correct as possible. We wanted to make it as Hungarian vasal./part of Ugrian kingdom if you like/ But it´s HARDCODED it´s not possible to do it. Because before Matthew became independent it was a part of Ugrian kingdom. And it would be a player´s choise if he wants to start rebellion or not. But we cannot remove his title palatine after his rebellion started because of two reasons. First reason is the game not allowed that and second reason is Matthew kept this title against King´s will. Yes king made a new palatine and wanted replace Matthew but he wasn´t able to defeat him. Believe or not we are trying to be as much correct as possible and the game allowed.

[baluro]

Typical reaction I have the book from Germany but especially for you I can look on the authors

I'm sorry, I'm not wise, I just can't stand and look what you are writing.First of all: I'm eagerly waiting for the authors.

Maybe it is because I can read???
Yes Mr. expert for everything
But I meant the cities.

It's not me, who claimed the title "expert for everything". And hell, no, I cannot read, and I cannot write.
Let me quote of the book, mentioned above (just because I have proofs on my statements):
"We know of some oligarchs ( for example the Subics or the Kőszegi family), that they had their own coins." (The history of the Fourteenth century by Bertényi Iván) I don't know, where their mints were, but I guess it's not important.

Never mind. Just study more. Go on a university and study hard. You can make it

That's theonly thing you can say.

[SirPeacemaker]

"We know of some oligarchs ( for example the Subics or the Kőszegi family), that they had their own coins."

I am really busy but only quick reaction. Koszegi family was defeated by Matthew Csak. I cannot recall the exact date now. Maybe you know.