Problem with defending gates, afects all M2TW, but SS could fix it

[Schweizergarde]

I've noticed that in both 5.1 and 6.0, AI units can basically force themselves through a chokepoint at an amazing speed. This makes defending settlements and bridges very hard, since regardless of the depth of men you put in their way, they just force through it without taking significant casualties. In fact, it seems like I lose more men and lose the ground.
This was not present in vanilla, and I can't replicate this behavior. When AI have units near a gate, I end up losing a lot of men to get through.

I suspect this would be result from Battle AI changes, which would be a shame since Lusted is no longer modding.

[Decius the Mad]

Have you tried pikes and stakes, for one?

[surfersrule]

Have you tried pikes and stakes, for one?

agree, most of work is made by cavalry pushing....use pikes on the ground near the gates and bridges, and some pike or spear militia in front line.....


also try to throw a mangonel or trebuchet hit in the middle of the fight, when the enemy has taken some place behind your wall......GREAT RESULTS!

[Schweizergarde]

Pikes and stakes obviously can properly block a chokepoint, but my point is AI can force a large number of units into a space that should not be possible and can not be done by Player. Pikes are also unavailable to most faction till late era and stakes even more scarce.

I appreciate the help, but I wasn't concerned with actually how to defend a settlement, but rather gameplay problems:
AI units ignoring minimal spacing between soldiers
AI units gaining ground rapidly by "pushing" without fighting animations
'' '' taking very little casualties

[mrpier]

I've also had this (small) problem, my normal tactic for chokepoints would be to make a killing box at the end of the bridge/gate/breach (like so \_/ ), but the enemy will just push it apart, meeting the enemy in the actual chokepoint works slightly better, but of course with many casualties on both sides. So suggestions on how to avoid this? I know pikes work well and same with siege-equipment.

[Lusted]

That's not caused by the battle AI, that wil be caused by unit mass and other settings.

[Schweizergarde]

That's not caused by the battle AI, that wil be caused by unit mass and other settings.

Thanks Lusted, and apologies if I mistakenly implied your mod was responsible =P
So how can this problem be fixed?

[Decius the Mad]

Artillery or archers covering pikes, such as everything from Flemish pikes, Swiss Pikes to even Highland Pike mercs. Pikes for everyone!

But yeah. Unit mass, and all, so I try to make it work against them. especially against the mongols and horse archer armies, who tend to just love to charge through gates en masse and right onto the pre placed stakes

[Naked Emperor]

I've noticed this too, and also on wooden walls, where the units come onto the battlements from within the settlement and push my elite units that have taken the battlements and push them into oblivion because of lack of space.

[Wilhelm von Nassau]

I experienced the same, pikes and stakes hardly make a difference. In vanilla I was able to defend a bridge or gatehouse with 4 units of spearmen an 2 archer units against a full stack. Now they simply push through, increasing my 'perimeter' making it impossible to defend. Cant something be done about this?

[TheSavage]

I experienced the same, pikes and stakes hardly make a difference. In vanilla I was able to defend a bridge or gatehouse with 4 units of spearmen an 2 archer units against a full stack. Now they simply push through, increasing my 'perimeter' making it impossible to defend. Cant something be done about this?

Well on a battlefield, if you had the equivalent of a full stack of men pushing against four units of spearmen, they would be able to push through.

[18Zulukiller]

Well on a battlefield, if you had the equivalent of a full stack of men pushing against four units of spearmen, they would be able to push through.

It don't think it works like that mate just think of the Battle of thermopylae.

[Mr.Elendig]

It does work. We had some fun in the navy, being "rioters" to play agains the base security, so we decided to make it hard for them.

Not easy to stop 120 people all pushing at once on command
The front line was about 15 people whide, the rest was pushing on from behind, all at once, by command of the leader.

Base security had about 40 people on the gate with full riot equip, but they didn't stand a chance against the weight of bodies.

[TheSavage]

It don't think it works like that mate just think of the Battle of thermopylae.

At Thermopylae the Persians only engaged small portions of their force at a single time, so it isn't the same.

The equivalent situation would be if the four spearmen was fighting a full stack, but only 3-4 units came across the bridge to fight at one time. But if you have the full stack bearing down and pushing from behind, they will generate enough force to push them back.

[Decius the Mad]

You'd think simply reducing mass would make cavalry fairly useless.

[Schweizergarde]

The value of the unit mass should stay, its the AI ability to stack all the mass in a small amount of space. Also the AI units ignores combat while doing this, which shouldn't be affected by mass.

[Jyvblamo]

Wow, I'm actually losing bridge battles now.

[Wilhelm von Nassau]

This just needs to be fixed. With the right units you must be able to hold a chockepoint against a vast majority of enemies. That's realistic. Commanders always try to make the area they have to defend as small as possible, and create chokepoints so they need less defenders.
A couple of thousend men pushing behind is just bollocks. They'd only trample their own frontline which hasn't got room to fight while being pushed through a line of spears and swords.

[rageallday]

This just needs to be fixed. With the right units you must be able to hold a chockepoint against a vast majority of enemies. That's realistic. Commanders always try to make the area they have to defend as small as possible, and create chokepoints so they need less defenders.
A couple of thousend men pushing behind is just bollocks. They'd only trample their own frontline which hasn't got room to fight while being pushed through a line of spears and swords.

lets just make sure King Kong notices this

[Seleukos I Nikator]

Agreed. Chokepoints are called that for a reason.

If they lose their strategic value then the total war landscape becomes much less interesting.