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Thread: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

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  1. #1
    Count of Montesano's Avatar Civitate
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    Default US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    Here's an interesting article in from Salon that looks at how the US Army is returning to the "Body Count" strategy that pretty much failed in Vietnam.

    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/05/09/snipers/

    Basically, the body count strategy is the idea that frontline units, especially snipers, must justify battlefield success based on a quota of how many insurgents they kill. While tracking enemy casualties is an effective way to track how a war is progressing in a conventional conflict, it's at best a nebulous way to keep score in a guerilla conflict. My dad, a Vietnam vet, used to joke that Army math is 2 water buffalo + 20 chickens + 1 farmer caught in the crossfire = 22 KIA Viet Cong.

    It seems littl has changed since the Army returned to body count quotas in Iraq. Some of the top US Army snipers have been recently convicted of murdering innocent civilians and placing "drop" weapons to make it seem like the civilians were actually combatants.

    But this isn't the most disturbing part. The high Army brass pushed harder and harder on frontline snipers to make quota, and looked the other way as long as sniper units seemed to be performing. Oh, and the convicted snipers did less than a year in prison for first degree murder and are still in active service. The commanding sergeant only lost one stripe and is still an NCO.

    BTW, I think the article does do a fair job of describing the extremely dangerous and hellish conditions snipers must endure in Iraq. But at the same time, it's obvious that the current system is rife with abuse and that the top brass looked the other way as innocents were being murdered.

  2. #2

    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    the senseless death of innocents is to be expected when you arm hairless apes and tell them to find enemies.

  3. #3

    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    this is new to me. Very interesting...very.
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  4. #4
    Legio XII's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    the senseless death of innocents is to be expected when you arm hairless apes and tell them to find enemies.
    Do not call our soldiers "hairless apes". Even if they were, they would be miles above a simpering fool of your stripe.

  5. #5
    Senno's Avatar C'est la Vie.
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    So disappointing, if actually true.
    Last edited by Senno; May 15, 2008 at 09:46 PM.

  6. #6
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    Holy . Interesting article. Are these really orders from above? I've never heard of this before. Are there any other sources for this? If this is true i am genuinely shocked and saddened.




  7. #7
    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    All armies in wars throughout history have used body counts to measure their success or non-success. The term 'body count' was invented during the Vietnam war and is not any different than previous wars and their body counts except for the fact that in a guerilla type war it can produce more civilian casualties due to pressure to raise the body count and that is not to good of an idea.

    Chris

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    Senno's Avatar C'est la Vie.
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    We shouldn't establish body counts.
    Last edited by Senno; May 15, 2008 at 09:46 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    The US is certainly winning hearts and minds in Iraq. Sure, some of them have bullet holes but I am sure it can find some intact. Just think of the possibilities.

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    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    I don't mind if they force solders to keep an accurate account of how many they kill, but quotas are ****ing ridiculous and irresponsible.

  11. #11
    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    It's impossible in a guerilla war or any war for that matter to get a fully accurate accounting of the numbers of enemies and innocents killed anyway.

    Chris

  12. #12
    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    Yeah, that's also what I said. Who is labelling it as a 'body count' now, the news media?? Chris

  13. #13

    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    Another " look at this article and bash the US thread"

    riiight

    A single god damn civilian is killed because of a stupid sniper and suddenly it becomes US policy to shoot innocents and a wide spread problem at that?

    what do they show as evidence? "supposed" documents of a single small group of soldiers led by a idiotic commander.

    Let's just hope they were fascist communist kittens who were on their way to international fascist communist fair.

  14. #14

    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    And you of course fail to notice that there was activity like faking insurgents involved? And that punishment was something that should make US people shamed of their "justice" system.

    How do we know it was one civilian?


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    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    Things like that are committed by all sides in a war Twiaz, and that is why wars are a waste and quite sad, but they happen for many reasons, the curse of human kind, and obviously you don't realize this yet and just grasp at anything to belittle the USA, other countries and other people in general that don't share your naieve views.

    Chris
    Last edited by christof139; May 14, 2008 at 02:25 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    And you of course fail to notice that there was activity like faking insurgents involved? And that punishment was something that should make US people shamed of their "justice" system.
    One isolated case, largely being interpreted from the information put forward by the son

    How do we know it was one civilian?
    So now if someone murders one man we know of we charge him for the murder of 100 more or assume he is part of a group?

    Let's just hope they were fascist communist kittens who were on their way to international fascist communist fair.

  17. #17
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    I say in the Guantanamo, Rendition or torture threads: "innocent until proven guilty", and i find myself up against resistance to this.

    If i now say the US top brass should be "innocent until proven guilty", will i find such adamant resistance?

    But, i still need more sources for this to wholeheartedly condemn all US officers involved in this policy. Like many other things, just one article does not cut it for me (still a harrowing article).




  18. #18
    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    One way to solve the prisoner issue in the future is TO TAKE NO PRISONERS.

    Chris

  19. #19
    Sidus Preclarum's Avatar Honnête Homme.
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    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    Quote Originally Posted by christof139 View Post
    One way to solve the prisoner issue in the future is TO TAKE NO PRISONERS.
    how funny...
    and how related to the topic!
    the perfect post! (down to the signature)

  20. #20

    Default Re: US Army returns to "Body Count" strategy with tragic results

    The article was a seriously disturbing read...and the baiting stuff...
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