The Crusades...

[Miraj]

I was interested in knowing how the "Crusades" script has been working out for both the KoJ player and it's foes - namely Ayyubids.

Have the stacks been showing up in Anatolia and the Holy Land? Have Ayyubid players who take over Jerusalem have to face Barbarossa or Richard? Have KoJ players found the stack "reinforcements" via papal assistance useful or just draining?

Experiences and advice is welcome so that I can fix up anything about the script in patch 1.1.

[Otsman]

i found that the extra stacks for the KoJ were simply draining, one ore two, even in times of crisis was more than enough.

when i took jerusalem with the ayubbids..well..i wished i'd never done that.
stack after stack just started appearing, it got so bad that i had to divert all my men in mesopotamia and makuria back to the levant (both the abbasids and makurians broke off their vassalage and reclaimed large tracks of their homeland )


but after many decades of fighting it all worked out, and then the mongols invaded. They had actually carved out a HUGE empire ecompassing all of persia, and a little into india and. I thought they were supposed to wander around with their heads in their asses!

[Kennylz]

I hope the Mongols do as well in my campaign. Nothing more fun than a scary black swarm looming above my head proclaiming themselves the wrath of god.

[redmanPH]

the "crusaders" have never been a challenge for me. im ayyubid and i got real scared when i conquered jerusalem and had messages saying crusaders are coming. but they only come like one stack at a time, and it's easy to defeat them. but i've never had them show up in anatolia. they just spawn right there, in the holy land! is there a possible way maybe that they appear at the edge of the map, like near constantinople and come all the way to jerusalem?

[Otsman]

yeah, i had three or four stacks spawn at one time in anatolia

[Kennylz]

Speaking of Holy Wars, how pious does my Imam need to be before I can wage Jihad?

I have like the only one on the map, and the Jihad is vital! I have to raise his piety very quick, but there are not many heretics around. He is level 3.

[colin666]

Speaking of Holy Wars, how pious does my Imam need to be before I can wage Jihad?

I have like the only one on the map, and the Jihad is vital! I have to raise his piety very quick, but there are not many heretics around. He is level 3.

3-5 piety I think. Not more than 5 for sure though

[Darvist]

They Melted like a Tower of Cheese Wiz. They just don't hold up to Caliphs Guard. There 28 defense is more than enuff to with stand some a few brunt charges as the Abbasids and thats not including that there most likely 6 or 9 Exp buy now. Mind you it was late game. They do utilize charge but only for a little bit an once ya get them cornered its over. They don't use it enuff to make a huge dent when they have 2 or 3 stacks as is already. Better than nothing. Maybe 2 stacks?

If stack spamming is reduced it might be more helpful overall.

[Kip]

As Jerusalem, if you're unlucky enough to get the stacks that spawn in Anatolia, you're basically screwed. The only reason you'd need to call in reinforcements (and subsequently receive them) is if you've lost a major settlement...this usually only happens when you're poor and struggling. Then add 7 or 8-odd turns of marching super-expensive-upkeep stacks to the battle zone, and say hello to bankruptcy in a big way.

[Kiki52]

I have a suggestion. Do you think in BC 2.0, you could have some units for the KoJ that are only specific for crusading and cannot be built by the KoJ at their castles or cities, but those units that appear in the crusading stacks have an upkeep cost of 0? Maybe that would be better, so that KoJ player doesn't become bankrupt when the Ayyubids take Jerusalem. I am sure Richard should have some specific English units with him, and they'd be good if they're 0 upkeep but you cannot build any. Also, I think the Crusading armies should have a LogisticalSkill 3 trait so they come to you faster because I know Richard when he came, he must have come as fast as possible as well as the other Crusaders probably tried to rush there as fast as possible.

[Kennylz]

I have a suggestion. Do you think in BC 2.0, you could have some units for the KoJ that are only specific for crusading and cannot be built by the KoJ at their castles or cities, but those units that appear in the crusading stacks have an upkeep cost of 0? Maybe that would be better, so that KoJ player doesn't become bankrupt when the Ayyubids take Jerusalem. I am sure Richard should have some specific English units with him, and they'd be good if they're 0 upkeep but you cannot build any. Also, I think the Crusading armies should have a LogisticalSkill 3 trait so they come to you faster because I know Richard when he came, he must have come as fast as possible as well as the other Crusaders probably tried to rush there as fast as possible.

Seconded, in a big way.

[Orisian]

I have a suggestion. Do you think in BC 2.0, you could have some units for the KoJ that are only specific for crusading and cannot be built by the KoJ at their castles or cities, but those units that appear in the crusading stacks have an upkeep cost of 0? Maybe that would be better, so that KoJ player doesn't become bankrupt when the Ayyubids take Jerusalem. I am sure Richard should have some specific English units with him, and they'd be good if they're 0 upkeep but you cannot build any. Also, I think the Crusading armies should have a LogisticalSkill 3 trait so they come to you faster because I know Richard when he came, he must have come as fast as possible as well as the other Crusaders probably tried to rush there as fast as possible.

Sorry to get all historically anal, but Richard took his sweet time to get to Acre. He even spent two years on Cyprus securing a supply line and stalling time for some... other "personal" matters.

Is it possible to make a little change in where the Crusaders spawn?
This mainly deals with Richard.
Richard, on his way to the Holy Land, was sidetracked in Cyprus.
quote from wiki
"Shortly after setting sail from Sicily, Richard's armada of 100 ships (carrying 8,000 men) was struck by a violent storm. Several ships ran aground, including one holding Joan, his new fiancée Berengaria, and a large amount of treasure that had been amassed for the crusade. It was soon discovered that Isaac Dukas Comnenus of Cyprus had seized the treasure. The young women were unharmed. Richard entered Limassol on May 6, and met with Isaac, who agreed to return Richard's belongings and send 500 of his soldiers to the Holy Land. Once back at his fortress of Famagusta, Isaac broke his oath of hospitality and began issuing orders for Richard to leave the island. Isaac's arrogance prompted Richard to conquer the island within days."

If you want to learn more about the specific reasons for his stalling/wasting time to get to The Holy Land, pick up a copy of "Richard and John: Kings at war. It has a detailed description of about 1100 A.D. - 1215A.D. And it has about 3-4 chapters on the Third Crusade.

[Teutonic Joe]

Sorry to get all historically anal, but Richard took his sweet time to get to Acre. He even spent two years on Cyprus securing a supply line and stalling time for some... other "personal" matters.

If you want to learn more about the specific reasons for his stalling/wasting time to get to The Holy Land, pick up a copy of "Richard and John: Kings at war. It has a detailed description of about 1100 A.D. - 1215A.D. And it has about 3-4 chapters on the Third Crusade.

Still he was in Cyprus as you just stated. So wouldnt it make more sense to have him spawn there?

Also i have books at any bookstore i go to. So many Templar ...so much templar ....Templars and the Freemasons, Secrets of the Templars, Templars, Templars and the Assassins....ITS TAKIN OVER!!!!!!!!!!!! One even had a damn easter island head on the cover!!!

[Taneda Santôka]

They do have crusade specific units don't they? Like those longbowmen.

[Aurion]

For me, the Crusaders weren't that much of a challenge. The reinforcement stacks arrived way too late and murdered the KoJ financially as KippyK pointed out, which is hard to do with a money script.

Reynaud de Chatillon and his Templars were a real *d to kill, though. I just ended up swarming them with Jund Spearmen and they eventually died...although they shattered most of a full-stack army before they finally kicked it.

Edit: Fortunately, I'd already grabbed Acre by then, so after that it was mostly easy pickings.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Aurion............

Thanks for the chip in. Nice avatar. Keep on posting, here's a +rep to get you started. Oh, and stay in school it rough out there!!! (Rodney Dangerfield)

[Aurion]

Aurion............

Thanks for the chip in. Nice avatar. Keep on posting, here's a +rep to get you started. Oh, and stay in school it rough out there!!! (Rodney Dangerfield)

Gracias, Senor. School sucks, seriously. I should probably be studying for exams right now.

Ironically enough, the city in my avatar is Acre, going back to my last post and the topic at hand.

That's really the KoJ's big weakness, as soon as they lose Acre they're screwed...Tartus just can't produce units in large enough quantities, and given that the AI KoJ is horrific at protecting Tyre, it's really easy to eviscerate them.

Typically, my Ayyubid strategy is to grab Tyre, Acre, and Jaffa as soon as the inevitable war starts, that basically kills the KoJ militarily and economically. Kerak's a pain to take because the AI seems to always leave the Templars there. The Crusading stacks arrive way too late, and even with them present I've shifted the balance of power to the point where it's childsplay to demolish them. I usually catch them coming out of Cilicia and massacre them, they're extremely vulnerable if an unfriendly faction (i.e. me) controls Aleppo, as they can be attacked again and again Soviet-style and I just train/rebuild units there. The Levant spawns are a bit more troublesome, but the last time they showed up they got slaughtered at the gates of Acre...stupid siege AI is ridiculously easy to own.

I've yet to play a long KoJ campaign, haven't gotten past about 1180. They're severely undermanned given they can be attacked at practically any point in their territory almost from the get-go.

The AI Ayyubids never seem to have any real trouble with the Crusaders, even the ones that spawn in the Levant.

[Teutonic Joe]

Is it possible to make a little change in where the Crusaders spawn?
This mainly deals with Richard.
Richard, on his way to the Holy Land, was sidetracked in Cyprus.
quote from wiki
"Shortly after setting sail from Sicily, Richard's armada of 100 ships (carrying 8,000 men) was struck by a violent storm. Several ships ran aground, including one holding Joan, his new fiancée Berengaria, and a large amount of treasure that had been amassed for the crusade. It was soon discovered that Isaac Dukas Comnenus of Cyprus had seized the treasure. The young women were unharmed. Richard entered Limassol on May 6, and met with Isaac, who agreed to return Richard's belongings and send 500 of his soldiers to the Holy Land. Once back at his fortress of Famagusta, Isaac broke his oath of hospitality and began issuing orders for Richard to leave the island. Isaac's arrogance prompted Richard to conquer the island within days."

So wouldnt it make more sense to have Richard appear in Cyprus?

[Ahiga]

The idea of Crusader specific units is a good idea in being of lower upkeep. It would probably not involve any new units (maybe in 2.0 they'd feature some Latin Empire ones), but rather be no more than 5 existing ones with lowered upkeep. Latin Knights, Quilted Crossbowmen, Armored Sergeant Spearmen, Quilted Men At Arms and Mounted Sergeants for instance.

[Miraj]

Hmmmm. One thing to remember is that in 1.1 the stack spamming is far less and recruiting lots and lots of armies is probably harder too.

One thing I could do is seriously up the experience of the stacks that spawn.. I mean gold chevrons up the ass. Sort of representing battle hardened mofos who were the cream of the Frankish/German/Italian soldiers that they were recruited from.

Another thing is to increase the garrison script quality of the KoJ in the levant. So that pulverizing them is not so easy as the Ayyubids.