I need your Bridge and Mongol killing theories

[wearycelt]

As Hungary I am about to attempt to defend a brdge from the Mongol Horde. I have a stack made up almost entirely of spear militia and DFK with a little bit of Knights of St. John. (Not the army I wanted, just the army I could raise). Oh, and two ballistae

I would appreciate any theories you have on troop formations as well as whether this would be an appropriate time for the schiltron and if it will work here.

As well as any info on how your long term defenses of a strategic position (i.e. defending the same bridge several times as I will be as the Mongols attempt it over and over) have gone and what you learned about having to fight such a campaign logistically(as in the campaign not battle map) as well.

Let me know, for at 5:30 PM Eastern Time, I'll be parading the Holy Right of Hungary in what will likely be the most challenging series of battles I will have.

[cankles]

Your screwed for sure. The best you can do is try to lure them onto a bridge, and as soon they cross trap them in between your units. If you do that, you have a chance. Just remember not very many people can defeat a full stack of mongols. Be happy if you can just weaken they're stack. Or just retreat and spread your stack out among your cities and castles. Good Luck.

PS: Tell me how it goes.

[Richard of Crewe]

I have to agree there. With no light cav in your army, those DFK's and spearmen will get a total pelting from the horse archers.

My advice would be to weaken them as much as poss; if you can train any light cavalry, do so ASAP. in the battle itself, try and kill their horse archers, which will lessen the burden on you next lot of troops. Its not often i condemn to defeat, but here it seems extremely difficult.

happy killing!

[Lord Gothmog]

If you are defending the bridge, your army is ON the bridge before the Mongols engage you, then you have a good chance at winning.

The AI normally just charges all its men across the bridge in an all out effort to break through so all you have to do is defend your end with your spear men and their calvary will charge right into them.

What I would suggest is that you form your spear units into a square so they are deep in rank, then place your spear men in a U formation around your side of the bridge. Make sure they are all on defend.

Once the Mongols charge accross the bridge they will be stuck in the center of the U and you will have them almost surrounded and you simply need to hold position and let your spear men chew up their calvary.

As soon as the U looks like it is about to break, charge in all your calvary through the back of your spear men to reinforce them. When the Mongols start to break and run away select all your units and have them attack a fleeing broken unit, charging all your troops across the bridge. Normally the left over units that are still fighting will break as well and start to run away. Chase, kill and try not to have any escape to reform up with the next army that attacks you.

I have done this several times and repelled/destroyed 4 full stacks in a row with one Army. It's hair raising, but possible. If you have pikes set them as the center(bottom) of the U.

This is not very effective against a player since they will just shoot the heck out of all your spear men before crossing the bridge.

[wearycelt]

Thanks for the encouragement Gothmog, I was starting to get a little worried. And, Cankles, I will be sure to post how the first few rounds go, and will likely ask for thoughts again.

[Kiljaden]

How did it work?

[Strom]

Try positioning your ballista as close to the river banks as possible so they can fire burning bolts at the Mongols with minimal risk of hitting your own guys. Hopefully the flaming ammo will encourage the Mongols to break sooner.

Other than that I endorse what Lord Gothmog said.

[wearycelt]

The dirty cowards retreated and regrouped with the incoming third wave.
This is where I stand. The Three stacks amidst all that devastation are also crouched for ambush.
The army shown on the bottom is in fact aboard the ship that is on the other end of that red arrow. All Ideas are welcome

[cankles]

So, thanks for the update. You got them to retreat? Congrats. If I were you I would spread out your troops into the cities and castles they are closest to. Their horse archers cant do anything against a huge stone wall!

[Sokar Rostau]

Eight stacks and change?

(King?) Stephen in Braveheart: "The Lord said he can get me out of this, but I'm pretty sure you're ****ed."

[green tea]

The third wave? Then now they have gunpowder, is that right (it is a long time since I played vanilla). Then they also have some artillery now. That makes your position on the bridge even worse. But if I am right and the gunpowder event occured, you have really to do one thing: build cannon towers for every possible city and citadel- this should have highest priority. If you otherwise can not afford it, cancel everything else. Cannon towers are almost a cheat, with them you can stop everything.

[clandestino]

What I would suggest is that you form your spear units into a square so they are deep in rank, then place your spear men in a U formation around your side of the bridge. Make sure they are all on defend.

Once the Mongols charge accross the bridge they will be stuck in the center of the U and you will have them almost surrounded and you simply need to hold position and let your spear men chew up their calvary.

Oh I lowed this tactic in RTW with legionares cause they could catch enemy in crossfire with pila but for M II I would suggest puting your spearmen in 4 ranks at the end of bridge with two others on the flanks and DFK in the rare. Good thing is that mounted Mongol archers don't have long enough range to fire at you across the river so they will be forced to charge, in that case your defending spearmen will hold position as long as you keep pushing extra units from flank and rare for reinforcement. Bridges are best places for defending against superior attacker especialy if you have some ranged units. When enemy crowds up on the bridge you can decimate them with shower of arrows. I would suggest to replace those balista with some archers or crossbowmen.
Mongols are bit overrated, they strength is in numbers not so much in quality so fighting with one stack of them is not that realy hard as almost everybody think.
And of course keep training new units at nearest castles.Can you train those awsome pavise spearmen? They would be excelent for holding position on the bridge.
Istenvele

[wearycelt]

QUOTE]Can you train those awsome pavise spearmen? They would be excelent for holding position on the bridge. [/QUOTE]Istenvele[/quote]

Oh yeah, I have a good quantity of them out there and more en route. Also, Gunpowder has not become available yet, so the threat of them having cannon and the possiblity of me getting any are both nil.

I want to take a moment and thank you all for your input.

.............................................................
And now that that is over, I would like to ask, are my stacks in ambush going to be effective or should I be trying to hold the pass to Caffa with forts?

[clandestino]

And now that that is over, I would like to ask, are my stacks in ambush going to be effective or should I be trying to hold the pass to Caffa with forts?

Fort with full stack army will be great solution cause Mongols rely suck in sieges and you can defeat them with the same tactic I explained in previous bridge related post.

[Kiljaden]

>Clandestino
/signed

[Walternat0r]

In that situation, where i've (expertly) placed asterisks, put another full stack behind the bridge defense as the mongols are easy to repel from a bridge when they're just one stack, but multiple can get a bit difficult. Where i've drawn the circle i'd build a fort on the road at that narrow point and then put a stack behind it and to the left hand side. As the other guys have said, the Mongols blow at seiges and if they go for Caffa they hopefully wont be able to get there, or will be held up for a bit while you get more troops in.

Hope that helps and good luck!

[cankles]

Ok, from what I can see, your cities are full(mostly), so just send all of the spare armies and attack all of their stacks with your stacks at the same time. You will get wiped out, but if you can just leave them with one or two stacks, their threat is eliminated.

[wearycelt]

UPDATE

First of all, no one should ever suggest that Hungary isn't awesome. (BTW h/h)

Secondly, The Mongols refusal to attack my heavily defended bridges have resulted in their second retreat from me. They just will not come across those things. So, in the meantime I have assassinated all but 3 of their generals and am beginning to attack the stragglers and other captains with night fighters. I have cannon and they have rocket launchers but so far the cannon is winning.


Given that, the nature of my question now changes. I am attacking with the left over spear militia and various Knights Hospitaller that I had from the defensive positions. I am moving armies up that have a higher concentration of of DFK and Royal Banderium (hooray) Is that the right approach or should I build up with something else?

[Theseus1234]

theres another river crossing between that polish province and russian province that you might want to hole up with another stack

cannons are CRUCIAL for the U approach at the bridge
place them on a small hill and when the mongols are bottled up by your spearmen, UNLEASH TEH GUNPOWDER

im also pretty sure the cannons beat rocket launchers in both accuracy and distance, so use that to your advantage

EDIT: when this mongol crap is all over, do two things:
1) eliminate the turks
2) PREPARE FOR THE TIMURIDS!!!!1!!!1!!!!1

[NobleNick]

Good job on forcing the Mongol retreat.

Though I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting the Mongols at bridges, I have fought countless bridge battles in RTW and M2TW. Here are some suggestions I would try to implement if I were to pick up where you are right now:

1.) build lots of Pavise Crossbow Militia (PCM). They are free upkeep in the cities, only 100/turn upkeep in the field, and will help lots in bridge battles. Notice that the PCM are the only non-artillery unit with a range of 160. YOur other archers/crossbowmen are 120 (same as Mongol horsearchers).

2.) At a bridge, you want to set up the situation as shown below. R = Ranged warrior (hopefully PCM), S = Spearmen, B = Ballistas, and @ = attackers packed onto bridge.

            Attackers (AI)
__________@@@__________
          |@| <-- Target ballistas to enemy units near rear of pack.
          |@| 
          |@|  <-- Target crossbows to enemy units at mid-span.
          |@|         
__________|@|__________
R  R    SS @ SS
R  R     S S S
R        S S S           B

         C C C

The Ballistas are optional. Really, I think you get a lot more bang for your buck with PCM --or even the wimpy archers and beginning crossbows which Hungary gets-- than you do with ballistas.

The object is to establish two killing zones. One on the bridge and one at your end of the bridge. Several tweaks that make this more successful:

1.) Place your ranged units on YOUR LEFT flank, so that they will shoot into the ENEMY's unshielded RIGHT flank. Ballistas can cut through shields and armor, so they can go on your right.

2.) Target your ranged units onto enemy units near the middle of the bridge, to avoid shooting your own men in the back. Keep retargeting to avoid fratricide.

3.) At your end of the bridge. Make the "U" which was spoken of and pack your spears in tight around the frontline units; so that your units do not rout. The tight pack and being assaulted from all 3 sides will also help the enemy rout quickly. This is excellent, since routing units spread terror to other units, and all routers are easy pickings for your crossbows. Keep your men on defensive stance so that they do not chase.

4.) If you have few spears and lots of crossbows, using a single unit to plug the bridge entrance will work. Let your crossbows do all the killing.

5.) If you happen to have an archer unit, placing flaming arrows into the middle of the "U" helps the enemy rout faster. Be prepared to take casualties from friendly fire...

6.) Cav are optional, and are solely for cleaning up routers, which often will flee on YOUR side of the bridge.

7.) If routers run to the enemy's side of the bridge, and there are still non-routers to deal with (as in a multi-stack conflict), let the routers go, and set up to grind through the others. Often the routers will do you the favor of collecting themselves and coming back to you. The now wearied enemy units are excellent bets to re-rout and further disrupt the enemy's assault and weaken their morale.