Best Unit Combination

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In my current Abbassid Campaign I find Abna Heavy Spear + Abna Infantry + Faris Archers= a sad story for my enemies. There are very few foes hardened enough to whether the fire arrow storm from the Faris Archers, then the Abna Infantry Javelins, then the pikes of the Abna Heavy Spearmen and not break.

Coupled with Missile cavalry and your General and you have war winning force that is damn near impossible to beat.

What are your combinations.

[schatzi]

16 elephant units charging across the battlefield

the quickest battles you´ve ever seen.

[colin666]

As the Ghorids = general, 1 or 2 heavy cavarly and the rest all horse archers.

I encircle the enemy & shoot their archers fast to limit deaths to my army while picking off units that wander too far away from support with my general and my heavy cavarly.
SOOO many heroic victories with this method since I'm always outnumbered and often fighting pretty good infantry.

When I'm fighting horse archer factions I use a mixture of horse archers, normal archers and heavy cavarly to support the archers.

[Faris ad Din]

Interesting topic, come to think of it! And it was the question on my mind recently as a matter of fact.

In my current Abbassid Campaign I find Abna Heavy Spear + Abna Infantry + Faris Archers= a sad story for my enemies. There are very few foes hardened enough to whether the fire arrow storm from the Faris Archers, then the Abna Infantry Javelins, then the pikes of the Abna Heavy Spearmen and not break.

Coupled with Missile cavalry and your General and you have war winning force that is damn near impossible to beat.

What are your combinations.

That seems quite the winning defensive combination. Horse archers are excellent for a defensive strategy - they use distance as their "armor" while wearing down the enemy. And then the Abbasid army is as splendidly armored as any other - those rich boys are an anvil. The Abna Infantry deliver a devastating ranged volley like the Roman legionaries, and then the spearmen absorb cavalry charges efficiently (nothing can stop a BC cavalry charge but spearmen are still worth their salt).

The vulnerabilities I can see in this combination and strategy is in reverse order:
1. Foot archers - they can counter the Faris' mounted archery, and deal ranged damage to your Abna lines. Although granted that Faris and all kinds of Abna have the sheer armor to charge the archers and win.
2. Heavy cavalry - or basically an army of all cavalry. The main weapon cavalry have is their mobility and maneuverability - if the opponent plays his army well, he can attack your army on all sides, or attack isolated elements and retreat before you can counterattack. Granted the quality of computer AI, however, such a capable opponent is hardly a possibility.
3. Horse archers - very dangerous for such a makeup - the only real counters for horse archers is a complete army of cavalry (missile or melee is fine) or foot archers (second best choice). Their volume of fire will outshoot your Faris in all cases (except if you're fielding 100% Faris) and their numbers will outmelee them. Your Abna will never catch up to them, and you always face the danger of being outflanked.

For the vast majority of opponents, fielding mostly melee infantry, I don't think it's a problem - Faris + Abna Infantry is basically a shredding machine in which you can liquify any infantry. Very nice strat!

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I personally hew to an "old-school" style of strategy - taught to all of the first Total War players in the Shogun tutorials! It comes down to basic doctrines like rock-paper-scissors or spearmen-cavalry-archers.

Among the basic Total War advice people receive is when in doubt, field balanced armies so you will be able to adapt and react to any situation.

So which faction do I play? One with the fewest advantages, no armor piercing units, and camels for mounted archers, but the prettiest troops and most romantic feel - Oman!

They field all-around excellent swordsmen, which fare solidly against other infantry and are fine in defense (and I love swordsmen - they are often so hard to come by ). Preferably Azd Infantry, but Omani Swordsmen can be spammed and still they look great for spam!

They have good ranged units - Arab Archers and the melee-capable Arabian Infantry, but I root for the cheaper and more easily available Arab Archers.
(The noble javelineers are allotted limited roles as anti-armor support units or elephant disposal crew, they're just not the legionary linemen the Abna or Daylami are.)

They have wonderful and oh-so-pretty cavalry - basically the light Arabian Cavalry. Light cavalry can be shred to pieces in the care of all but the most skilled commanders, but I've learned how to use cavalry adeptly by now - Arabian Cavalry suit me just fine, charging all kinds of enemies. The top tier Arabian Noble Lancers are too hard to reach so I just use bodyguards for that role.

My typical army mix is 6-8 units of swordsmen (and a few units of spearmen, Dismounted Noble Lancer spearmen if I can get them), 4-6 units of archers (light Arab Archers, I know how to play archers well too!) and 8 units of cavalry if I can, some may be Bado Camel Archers. Basically my armies hew towards a balanced mix.

I deploy archers in front of my swordsmen, with my cavalry waiting behind both flanks or all concentrated on one flank, I send my Bado Camel Archers on a BRIEF skirmish run to cause casualties and cause the enemy to be disarrayed, and I wait for their main body of infantry to reach my main army. The standard protocol of peppering with arrows, retreat my archers when the enemy reaches about thirty yards distance, and receive the enemy's infantry charge with my swordsmen. I allow my swordsmen to fight a good while to earn their glory, and at the critical point of the fight (the point at which things are hesitant or changing the slowest) I unleash my charge of cavalry, and do not stop until the enemy are broken.

Sounds too classic, right? I'm quite certain that this works against just about any kind of enemy, AND I'm at the reins of one of the factions with the least technology and armor. Oman still rocks when used right - great swordsmen, great lancers. Excellent unit selection for a balanced-type of general. They may be on the light side, but that's what makes the gameplay all the more exciting and more rewarding when you succeed.

[Request a new user name]

Interesting topic, come to think of it! And it was the question on my mind recently as a matter of fact.

That seems quite the winning defensive combination. Horse archers are excellent for a defensive strategy - they use distance as their "armor" while wearing down the enemy. And then the Abbasid army is as splendidly armored as any other - those rich boys are an anvil. The Abna Infantry deliver a devastating ranged volley like the Roman legionaries, and then the spearmen absorb cavalry charges efficiently (nothing can stop a BC cavalry charge but spearmen are still worth their salt).

The vulnerabilities I can see in this combination and strategy is in reverse order:
1. Foot archers - they can counter the Faris' mounted archery, and deal ranged damage to your Abna lines. Although granted that Faris and all kinds of Abna have the sheer armor to charge the archers and win.
2. Heavy cavalry - or basically an army of all cavalry. The main weapon cavalry have is their mobility and maneuverability - if the opponent plays his army well, he can attack your army on all sides, or attack isolated elements and retreat before you can counterattack. Granted the quality of computer AI, however, such a capable opponent is hardly a possibility.
3. Horse archers - very dangerous for such a makeup - the only real counters for horse archers is a complete army of cavalry (missile or melee is fine) or foot archers (second best choice). Their volume of fire will outshoot your Faris in all cases (except if you're fielding 100% Faris) and their numbers will outmelee them. Your Abna will never catch up to them, and you always face the danger of being outflanked.

For the vast majority of opponents, fielding mostly melee infantry, I don't think it's a problem - Faris + Abna Infantry is basically a shredding machine in which you can liquify any infantry. Very nice strat!

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1. They are Dismount Archers. Faris Horse Archers are mounted.
2. My own supporting cavalry manages to hold them off and I choose ground carefully to minimize flanking attacks.
3. I wait for them to exhaust their arrows then send my Infantry on wide flanking maneuvers that pincer them. Its very hard to do with lots of micromanaging, but it works.

[Tail End Charlie]

There are weaknesses in the Abbasaids though, Faris cavalry although pretty good are actually just medium level HA's they'll suffer against better Horse archer armies like Seljuks or Mongols. And they lack a strong foot archer if I recall.

Stilll Abna Spears are rock solid and when used in conjunction with Mounted and Dismounted Caliphs Guard they kick serious ass.

[Faris ad Din]

1. They are Dismount Archers. Faris Horse Archers are mounted.
2. My own supporting cavalry manages to hold them off and I choose ground carefully to minimize flanking attacks.
3. I wait for them to exhaust their arrows then send my Infantry on wide flanking maneuvers that pincer them. Its very hard to do with lots of micromanaging, but it works.

Ah, you're using FOOT archers! That's a different matter. And as long as you're using an infantry army cautiously there's little to fear.

The point is that players often use foot archers in conjunction with the rest of their infantry; most people use mounted archers in an advance skirmishing role separate from the rest of the army, which brings about different advantages and vulnerabilities.

So you're really using a balanced kind of strategy after all, with supporting heavy cavalry and even horse archers. "Balanced" is not the best in EVERY situation but it's just so flexible and hard to beat.

[gadajs]

I am Playing as the turkish sultanate right now, and currently field 3 General Purpose Medium Armies, and 1 Ghazi all-star stack. With this kind of Army I have taken out the Armenians, half of the KOJ, all of the ERE and fought the far, far richer Abbasids and Ayyubids to a stalemate and ceasefire. This army consists of:

1 General, usually chosen from age 16 to lead this army and typically ends up 10star 10 chivalry.
5 Seljuk RB cavalry
4 Seljuk CB cavalry (be careful with these due to low replenishment rates)
6 Tirpan Azaps
2 Frontiersmen
(2 Timariots once i get my first fortress)

Tactics are quite simple. Line up the azaps in the middle, quite far from the enemy, with the frontiersmen on the flanks if the enemy has little heavy cavalry, and skirmishing in front of the azaps if I am risking a monster charge. HA's just go round and encircle the enemy. Easy win and all units are recruitable quite early. The only problem is that the CBs and the Tipans have quite low replenish rates.

Now I have just finished my conquest of the ERE, and I am beginning to become richer than I have ever been in this particular game, as well as finally having access to citadels, and therefore I am going to start building 2 elite armies (while maintaining my 3 medium armies... too many gold chevrons!). The Elite armies will probably have

1 General
9 Sipahis (mix between lancers and Heavy HAs)
10 Heavy infantry (mix between JHI and OI)

Not sure if the increased cost will be worth it.

[Faris ad Din]

1 General, usually chosen from age 16 to lead this army and typically ends up 10star 10 chivalry.
5 Seljuk RB cavalry
4 Seljuk CB cavalry (be careful with these due to low replenishment rates)
6 Tirpan Azaps
2 Frontiersmen
(2 Timariots once i get my first fortress)

Tactics are quite simple. Line up the azaps in the middle, quite far from the enemy, with the frontiersmen on the flanks if the enemy has little heavy cavalry, and skirmishing in front of the azaps if I am risking a monster charge. HA's just go round and encircle the enemy. Easy win and all units are recruitable quite early. The only problem is that the CBs and the Tipans have quite low replenish rates.

Now I have just finished my conquest of the ERE, and I am beginning to become richer than I have ever been in this particular game, as well as finally having access to citadels, and therefore I am going to start building 2 elite armies (while maintaining my 3 medium armies... too many gold chevrons!). The Elite armies will probably have

1 General
9 Sipahis (mix between lancers and Heavy HAs)
10 Heavy infantry (mix between JHI and OI)

Not sure if the increased cost will be worth it.

Hmm, what do you use for sieges? Your Ghazi army? And do you switch tactics when facing a cavalry/horse archer army (not that the AI trains a lot of cavalry... predominantly infantry which most players learn how to liquidate in detail).

With KoJ,i use:
1 General guard
5 Heavy Knight (templars,hospitallers etc)
6 Spearmen (armored or not)
6 Swordmen
2 Archers (mounted or not es turcopoles)

You're following a classic Western European French/HRE model right? Heavy cavalry, heavy infantry. Do you focus on infantry more, impacting infantry first and using cavalry to flank, or do you end up relying on cavalry more for all of your needs?

[mastaace]

i play as well a little infantry heavy. i usually field about 4-5 jund spearmen, taqlahs and dismounted askaris for support and charge (2:4), magrebi marines (not more then 3), 6-7 turkoman horsearchers, a general, sometimes light cavalry, and quara ghulam cavalry.

steppin further into the game i use some mamluks as well, but - man, these cost a bunch of money.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Oman is my favorite faction too, but I find my army mostly composed of mercenaries, because of the great distances and my own inability to generate enough income to upgrade castles. Besides, most of the castles are in very infertile places, taking forever to grow. Finally, thanks to the corruption problem, I try to cut on maintenance costs whenever possible.
Therefore, apart from the Imam's guard, which is great, I really prefer an army of mercenaries. The Hindu longbowmen for example are better than anything I can train and yet so affordable. Same for Nuristani tribesmen - they are superb against the elephants of the Rajputs, I can spam them and also use them for garrisons, and finally, they are great for breaking enemy charges during defensive battles, when I hide them behind my crappy spears - a few vollies of javelins and I can send my Arab cavalry and general to mop up the fleeing enemy. The Persian spearmen are also a very cost effective unit. So basically, I only train swordsmen and light cavarly from my native troops plus Aceh warriors wherever I do not have access to Persian spearmen. The bedu camels archers are nice, but they are too expensive to maintain and way too slow. I find it cheaper to hire Turkoman mercenaries for the same job.

[Ryo]

With KoJ,i use:
1 General guard
5 Heavy Knight (templars,hospitallers etc)
6 Spearmen (armored or not)
6 Swordmen
2 Archers (mounted or not es turcopoles)

[Ryo]

@faris
I really like the heavy cavalry...
Rude charge and infantry to finish the job...
But depend...
With muslim army with large number of muonted archers ...the charge on western cavalry is high dangerous...and the infantry and turcopoles are better...

[redz27m]

yadayadyada...well you can field even a full stack of heavy cav and then hell like he said you can even field entirely elephants on your army, and worst of all entirely horse archers.... good but if you want to play historically and maybe add some challenge and feel the pains of those generals in the field,MIXED YOUR FORCES!!!! at least its supposed to be that way....

sorry..

[Ryo]

I always use a mixed army...

the KOJ heavy cavarly are expensive...too much!!!

it's unthinkable to use only heavy cavalry...

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For Ghazni, it appears, that Ghulam Infantry paired with Daylami Infantry and Khurasani Heavy Spearmen with some supporting Cavalry and Artillery= death to what ever foe is brave enough to charge them.

In testing, a moderately experienced force of these guys annhiliated a full gold Mongol Army.

[Samariten]

For field battles i often use

4 units of archers (i love archers)
3 units of spearmen
4 units of heavy meat wall infantry to smash up things that breathe
3 units of heavy cavalry
2 units of light cavalry
3 units of HA
1 unit of general


I usually put all spearmen on one side and the heavy and light cavarly on ther other flank. HA behind spearmen which i use to lure away either enemy cavarly or spearmen in the start, then i let the heavy cavarly charge either the rear or if lucky the center of the enemy army. Meanwhile i let my light cavalry go all they way behind the enemy army and pick their targets (Ottoman Raiders can make a mess among archers). When my heavy cavalry been doing enough damage or taken enough i send in my heavy infantry to clear up the rest of the enemy center. Problem with this tactic is that you could loose track of where the enemies cavalry is going but mostly i regroup my spearmen to watch for flanking. Also most of times my archers can fire volleys of arrows under the whole battle without being engage in melee.

[Faris ad Din]

Also most of times my archers can fire volleys of arrows under the whole battle without being engage in melee.

Nice, another balanced army fan!
And when archers can stand out of trouble and just fire away continuously, they rack up scary numbers of kills. That's when they are at their best

For Ghazni, it appears, that Ghulam Infantry paired with Daylami Infantry and Khurasani Heavy Spearmen with some supporting Cavalry and Artillery= death to what ever foe is brave enough to charge them.

In testing, a moderately experienced force of these guys annhiliated a full gold Mongol Army.

Can you tell us the strategy/basic guidelines you use against the Mongols? I tried different testing against the exact units listed in the script (1 bodyguard, 5 Heavy Lancers (or 4 Heavy Lancers + 1 Trebuchet), 5 Heavy Horse Archers, 9 foot archers (either all tough-as-nails Mongol Infantry or split between Mongol Infantry/Mongol Foot Archers), and every single one with 6 experience (3 silver chevrons). They are utter devils to the last - most of their army spams arrows and you just can't kill them fast enough, and then their heavy lancers are devastating and even their heavy horse archers can charge like heavy cavalry. Their Mongol Infantry are as tough as any melee infantry can get and they are expert archers all at once.

[Request a new user name]

Can you tell us the strategy/basic guidelines you use against the Mongols? I tried different testing against the exact units listed in the script (1 bodyguard, 5 Heavy Lancers (or 4 Heavy Lancers + 1 Trebuchet), 5 Heavy Horse Archers, 9 foot archers (either all tough-as-nails Mongol Infantry or split between Mongol Infantry/Mongol Foot Archers), and every single one with 6 experience (3 silver chevrons). They are utter devils to the last - most of their army spams arrows and you just can't kill them fast enough, and then their heavy lancers are devastating and even their heavy horse archers can charge like heavy cavalry. Their Mongol Infantry are as tough as any melee infantry can get and they are expert archers all at once.

First step is to avoid being out flanked and force the Mongols into a grinding match. So deploy in a triangular formation at the edge of the map if the terrain is open, in rocky or forested terrain pick the best spot for the most advantages and for bridges and fords, stack right there.

Now deploy spears in front, Daylami behind in shield wall, Ghulam Infantry behind, Artillery behind them if you have it, and cavalry on the flanks. All are to be in guard mode.

Let the Mongols come to you, they are the ones who have to win, you just have to not lose.

Its quite simple really, it also helps if you read Sun Tzu and eliminate Mongol Generals first and set things up so you can not in any way lose.

[Faris ad Din]

Let the Mongols come to you, they are the ones who have to win, you just have to not lose.

Wow, that's key. +rep

Although I wonder, if you have your heavy spears in front how you can weather their missile fire. Unless I'm being a dork ("how can Khurasani Heavy Spears NOT weather their fire?")

I do read Sun Tzu a bit, I don't follow his strategies closely so to speak, but I use whatever makes sense and is useful when the opportunity arises. "The Art of War" is a very general and open treatise on war when there were no other authoritative ones around, like basic principles on which other strategies may be based. You cannot get much strategical guidance from the Art of War alone, it does not explain how to USE the principles in it, but it's a good set of guidelines to refer to. Indeed, there were other Chinese "tomb texts" in addition to the Art of War that list specific conversations about specific campaigns and dilemmas asked by kings to their generals which give much better ideas of how the principles were employed.