Discussion: The Atabeg of Azerbaijan

[Tail End Charlie]

I realised that the Atabeg's or AA have yet to have their own thread, and as from my reading they are going to be in 2.0 so we should have some place other than the KK, Zengid and Rus threads to yammer on about them on. These guys along with the Zengids are what really excite me, since these already crowded places in the game, and crowded areas always give the best gameplay.

So here are my starting Questions:

If these guys get most of the Western Seljuk Territories will the GS get territorial compensation further East?

Will their unit roster be based around the standard Turkic Ghulam/Horse archer units with expansion on the Azeri units already in the game?

[Ahiga]

At the moment there's no planned approach for Azerbaijan. But to your questions:

That'll probably be the case. I do not know which Atabeg/Seljuk Successor State the Seljuks would come to represent in 2.0, they'd probably be shifted more towards North-Eastern Iran with the Azeri in North-West.

Their unit roster is still in its earliest concept phases, but a few important points:

• Azerbaijan and North-West Iran was known for heavy cavalry, particularly those wielding their sword. This being the realm of the Agulani, and seems to be less like North-East Iran (Khorasan) which is more famous (But not exclusive) to heavy horse archers and.

• The Caucasus and mountainous regions of Eastern Anatolia had a cross-pollination between the Muslims and the Byzantines in armor styles and abundance of it. The region seems to have had a good deal of armor with many Christians having Persian/Turkic styles of armor and many Muslims having Christian styles.

• Azerbaijan seems like it would have been linked to the socieities of Northern Iran, as we can see from the battle of Jalula in 647 AD where: "Deylamite commander Muta led an army of Gils, Deylamites, Azarbaijanis, and people of Rayy region."

• In addition, the terrain of Azerbaijan is the Caucasus mountains (Though I have heard it varies dramatically), so while like any Turkish Atabeg they would have made use of light horse archers, it's possible they would have a greater appreciation for infantry.

So while the definition is far from set up, so it could change dramatically, the direction I myself would like for them to take is that of being our "Daylamite" Faction. Sort of a Muslim Georgia with good infantry and heavy cavalry but crappy light cavalry.

[kabeast]

Sounds like a beast, but God knows how long it's going to be before 2.0. But hey, take your time, you guys have lives too Can someone direct me toward a thread that has a general summary of what might be on 2.0? Is there such a thread? Will our hero make it out alive? Find out next week!

[Tail End Charlie]

They haven't even released 1.1 yet.

But from what we know (as in fans) the map will be expanded, several new factions will be added (Kara-Kitai, Rus, Latin states, Zengids, Atabegs and Delhi), Mongols will be reskinned and Grandviz will continue to tweak the A.I and stuff.

[B. Ward]

I've been playing 2.0 for months now.....

[Manco]

Wait a minute?
You've been playing a BC version that the team has barely even started to work on?
So, euhm, where do I buy that timemachine? I could really use one...

[Ramah]

Just though I'd post some URLs I've been reading from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atabegs_of_Azerbaijan
http://www.iranica.com/newsite/artic.../v2f8a073.html
http://www.dialogue.ge/book_1/dialogue_1_7.pdf (?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Azerbaijan

[ShayanMirza]

Howdy Ahiga! Been a while! Already thinking of the next version!? I haven't even played half of this one! You guys are tireless. And insane.

Azerbaijan was prime grazing area for the nomadic Turkmen, and was one of the favored Summer pasturages. Throughout Iranian and Azeri history it was renowned as one of the lushest areas for sheep and horses.

Despite the mountains, it had an overwhelming abundance of equestrian nomads and was a hotbed for mounted warfare (remember where the Qara Qoyunlu and Safavids sprung from? Yep!)

So definitely it had tons of horse archers as well as, as you said, heavy horsemen to boot. But definitely boatloads and boatloads of horse archers!

I can see why you might want to diversify though!

Here's an article on the Atabakan: EDIT: oops, as I was posting Ramah beat me to it. I guess I'll have to make up for it by going to the library and checking out the Cambridge History of Iran.
http://www.iranica.com/newsite/artic.../v2f8a073.html

I'll try to dig up more stuff on them. Til then, here's some Aq Qoyunlu armor--later era, I know, but the point is the Turban Helmet! Pimpin.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/08/waa/ho_50.87.htm

[Papak]

Hi, I've been playing this mod since the moment it came out, great job

I'm an Azeri Turk and will be glad to try to answer any cultural or historical questions you may have about us.

[Tail End Charlie]

How do you guys put with Aliyev and his ilk?

And who was there first the Armenians or Azeris?

[Miraj]

And who was there first the Armenians or Azeris?

Well Armenians are one of the most ancient peoples on earth. Azeris, that is modern Azeris are a ethnic group that formed with the migration of Oghuz turk nomads into the originally "Iranian" and Caucasian Azeribaijan region. The Azeris are racially pretty much Iranian but culturally and linguisitically very Turkic. So the Armenians are 'older' than modern Azeris in a sense.

Of course if you consider the original indegenous inhabitants of Azeribaijan (ie before the arrival of the Seljuks/Oghuz) who were various people like the "Albanians", Gilanis and various other Iranians then those people (now largely extinct) are pretty much as ancient as Armenians.

[Papak]

1) Azerbaijan is a successor state to Caucasian Albania whose culture dates back further than 800 B.C. (it may be much older, this is just what is proven). Turkish culture dates back to 2,000 B.C. and Oghuz Turkish culture begins in the 3rd century B.C. All this has had a great impact on Azeri national identity.

2) Iranians came to Azerbaijan as conquerors trying to force their culture on Caucasian Albanians, and were never a majority of the population although they had many colonists there. To this day Iranian chauvinists and nationalists want to annex modern-day Azerbaijan and force their culture on us. This is ironic considering how many times Iran was conquered by Turkish peoples who never forced their language on Iranians.

3) Azerbaijan was conquered by Turkish Khazars in 628, they didn't force their language and culture on us since nomads usually aren't inclined to do so. Native Albanian people assimilated into the culture, they weren't kicked out or killed off.

4) If you have to put us in a camp put us in the Turkish group. Because the Caucasus is just a geographical region, but Turkish is a cultural, linguistic, and racial group that spans two continents. There are quite a few ethnic Turkish groups in the Caucasus, such as the Karachay, Nogai, Karapapak, Kumyk...

[Otsman]

Well Armenians are one of the most ancient peoples on earth. Azeris, that is modern Azeris are a ethnic group that formed with the migration of Oghuz turk nomads into the originally "Iranian" and Caucasian Azeribaijan region. The Azeris are racially pretty much Iranian but culturally and linguisitically very Turkic. So the Armenians are 'older' than modern Azeris in a sense.

a little side fact- there are theories out there that pinpoint greek origins to the armenians, theorists say that they lived under one collective tribe, and parts of that tribe eventually made it to greece.

the old armenian and greek languages are actually very alike (said the internet)

sry for the semi-spam

[dogukan]

we'd have to figure out roots of Azeris first...Caucasian, Iranian, Turkic?

[Faris ad Din]

From the little I've read, the history of the Caucasus can be very touchy... my thanks to all for being civil!

I have some curious questions that I know a native would know much better about.

Can you tell us about the kinds of soldiers and fighting styles of the natives of present-day Azerbaijan BEFORE this time period? Were they very much a nomadic steppe-people who fought from horseback with bows as long as the Huns/Mongolians did? Did nobles fight differently, with elaborate armor (I know the Scythians were renowned for splendid glittering armor)? With what kinds of troops did the natives fight the various Persian empires - I'm thinking unarmored/armored spearmen, archers, axemen? Did they follow the influences of different civilizations for their own culture/fighting styles? I'm interested in everything before about 1000 A.D., history is much better documented in later periods.

My second question regards the foriegn-influenced parts of Azeri culture. Specifically I heard that Persian culture and language had an impact on many civilizations throughout southwest Asia - the Ottoman and Mughal courts spoke Persian, Central Asia was heavily Persian influenced and adopted Persian (rather than Arabic) names, and adopted influences from Persian art and technology. I visited one upscale Azerbaijani restaurant and a lot of the food seemed similar to Persian cuisine, and the elements that did not, seemed more similar to Turkish cuisine - a lot of yogurt! Is the Persian influence the predominant one for the medieval time period (and did it mainly impact the ruling classes or the daily life of commoners as well)? Were there other influences? Or was foriegn influence on all parts of Azeri culture small, and native Azeri/Turkic culture still predominant?

P.S. To all the participants in this thread and the forums, PLEASE be civil! I understand what it is like to have hot nationalistic passions and that is NOT a bad thing, it is rather noble. Don't let them make enemies out of people before you get to know the human beings BEHIND the ethnicity/national identity, please.

[Papak]

From the little I've read, the history of the Caucasus can be very touchy... my thanks to all for being civil!

I have some curious questions that I know a native would know much better about.

Can you tell us about the kinds of soldiers and fighting styles of the natives of present-day Azerbaijan BEFORE this time period? Were they very much a nomadic steppe-people who fought from horseback with bows as long as the Huns/Mongolians did? Did nobles fight differently, with elaborate armor (I know the Scythians were renowned for splendid glittering armor)? With what kinds of troops did the natives fight the various Persian empires - I'm thinking unarmored/armored spearmen, archers, axemen? Did they follow the influences of different civilizations for their own culture/fighting styles? I'm interested in everything before about 1000 A.D., history is much better documented in later periods.

Since Azerbaijan as well as Daghestan was a destination point for nomadic people, the local khans had military tactics very similar to the Khazars, Huns, and Seljuks. Inner Azerbaijan has very fertile pastures for horses and cavalry. Even high in the mountains or highlands mostly cavalry was used. There are special breeds of horses in the Caucasus which have evolved to have hooves of particular use in rocky mountain terrain.

As is documented in the Turkish epic Dede Korkut and various works, it described how even women would fight on horseback with swords and bow and arrow. There are entire stories dedicated to them. In this picture the Azeri woman is on the right

My second question regards the foriegn-influenced parts of Azeri culture. Specifically I heard that Persian culture and language had an impact on many civilizations throughout southwest Asia - the Ottoman and Mughal courts spoke Persian, Central Asia was heavily Persian influenced and adopted Persian (rather than Arabic) names, and adopted influences from Persian art and technology. I visited one upscale Azerbaijani restaurant and a lot of the food seemed similar to Persian cuisine, and the elements that did not, seemed more similar to Turkish cuisine - a lot of yogurt! Is the Persian influence the predominant one for the medieval time period (and did it mainly impact the ruling classes or the daily life of commoners as well)? Were there other influences? Or was foriegn influence on all parts of Azeri culture small, and native Azeri/Turkic culture still predominant?

I'm not surprised you think Azeri cuisine resembled Turkish cuisine, we are Turks after all. Iranian cuisine is also greatly influenced by Turkish cuisine which is among the best in the world.

Like you said native Azeri Turkish culture has always been predominant, even under foreign occupation, and particularly in medieval times. We Azeris never considered ourselves Iranian and we usually take it as an insult when we hear people think we are. Actually the Shia Safavid Dynasty which ruled Iran was Turkish. It's ironic that in the Ottoman court it was Farsi or Greek that was the official language, whereas in the Safivid court it was Turkish.

Prior to the Safavid Empire the Ak Koyunlu and Black Koyunlu (white sheep and black sheep) Turks in the 14th and 15th centuries were actively encouraging native Caucasian languages even in their administration, such as Udi. So they were tolerant, and regardless of this most speakers of these languages started to speak Turkish instead.

During the Ottoman-Safavid wars many Anatolian Turks actually sided against the Ottomans because they considered the Safavids to be their ethnic kin more so than they did the Ottoman family. Although the early Ottoman dynasty was very Turkish they got lost somewhere along the middle in their multi-cultural empire, and they almost forgot their Turkish heritage until the age of nationalism came about during the late 1800's.

[Faris ad Din]

Thank you very much. I don't have very much to reply with, I am simply absorbing all the information you gave me!

It came to me as a surprise that there was a significant Azeri and Turkic influence on Persia - it was my ignorant and uninformed impression that it was the other way. So I know now that many similarities I may encounter between Azeri culture and others is that much influence came from theirs. Fascinating!

[Papak]

Thank you very much. I don't have very much to reply with, I am simply absorbing all the information you gave me!

It came to me as a surprise that there was a significant Azeri and Turkic influence on Persia - it was my ignorant and uninformed impression that it was the other way. So I know now that many similarities I may encounter between Azeri culture and others is that much influence came from theirs. Fascinating!

Nothing about you is ignorant brother, ignorant people don't ask questions Thanks for your questions

[Papak]

Khazar Warriors:


Info from www.gateway.az on Azeri arms

Caucasian arms and armour embody the centuries-long experience and skulls of oriental armourers, enriched, as it is, by long - standing traditions of outstanding craftsmanship.
Adorned with most varied decorations, artistically and technically superbly accomplished, Caucasian weaponry constitutes a truly unique phenomenon in the history of the material esthetic culture of oriental peoples.
The most widespread material used for the adornment of weaponry was silver, highly valued by Caucasian silver-smiths.
Caucasian pistols and guns, despite the simple technology of their manufacture, were of excellent constructional design and high firing power.
Organized in the seventeenth century, the manufacture of firearms attained high degree of perfection already by the end of the eighteenth, with Caucasian pistols and rifles gaining well-earned fa-me and popularity throughout the Orient.
Caucasian firearms, too, were sumptuously and lavishly decorated : the barrels were adorned with gold damascening, the gunstocks, straight and narrow, were made of plane-tree an nut-tree wood, were inlaid with bone, silver, or woods of different species.

The bands, used to secure the barrel and stock together, were often made of solid silver with engraving and nielloing. The inscribed names of the gunsmith and or owner of the weapon, enclosed in dec-orative cartouches, served as an elegant addition to the artistic ornamentation of the piece.
In the late nineteen's and early twentieth centuries Caucasian armourers produced a special kind of cavalry sword, the socalled "shashka", or "long knife ", resembling a sabre but with the blade only slightly curved and without a crossguard. Quite varied is belonging to the period of the late Middle Ages: hauberks, breastplates, armlets, leggings and greaves, shields and sabres, all kinds of halberds and helmets. Used by Caucasian warriors, such weaponry was both imported and made in the Caucasus.

[Eisberg]

I'm not surprised you think Azeri cuisine resembled Turkish cuisine, we are Turks after all. Iranian cuisine is also greatly influenced by Turkish cuisine which is among the best in the world.

Like you said native Azeri Turkish culture has always been predominant, even under foreign occupation, and particularly in medieval times. We Azeris never considered ourselves Iranian and we usually take it as an insult when we hear people think we are. Actually the Shia Safavid Dynasty which ruled Iran was Turkish. It's ironic that in the Ottoman court it was Farsi or Greek that was the official language, whereas in the Safivid court it was Turkish.

Not exactly, its actually the raction of the present Azeri, to be insulted by beeng called Iranian/Persian, and calling Turks (Citizen of Republic of Turkey) their brothers, I am sure you`ve read Mirza Fatali Axundov(1812-1878), Axundov often writes stuff like WE AZERIS ARE PEOPLE OF IRAN and the TURKS/OSMANS ARE SUNNI DOGS! this is a brilliant example of how different azeri people were thinking aubout Turks and Persians before the MODERN/NATION states came.. Axundov was a NorthAzeri from sheki and like many others at that time he felt Azerbaijan belongs to Iran.