Javelin spam

[czePowerslave]

Been playing on H/M with AI bonuses off, as Rome and Greeks..and while beating enemies is easy at all, I have a problem with it
first as Roman, carthage keeps spamming full stacks of units each 3 turns at me. And what I hate most - last stack is 2 civic infantry, one half strong sacred band, and 17!! peltast like infantry. Battle is usually boring as I chase them all all all around the map...And because of the money issue as my cities are sieged timely, my money isnt high enough to raise big fleet or to raise another army in Italy, so im pretty tied to the peninsula, and cant leave. Does this something to do with the AI bonuses? like giving them nerdlike ability to train TONS of javelins? its annoying to fight running battle.

and greeks - same with macedons, 3 turns = full stack of javelins...

help me out of it, make them train armies that are worth smth!

[Stoneface]

Peltast are the only thing to train at the first level barrack. They also have a good attack value, are armor piercing and most of all cheap which makes them attractive to the AI. The bonuses may still have to do something with this as they give the computer a 90% discount on all buildings and makes it build faster so it will build more higher level barracks and can recruit more higher level infantry.

[czePowerslave]

I saw that with the sacred band, but why is it spamming the javelins? its so boring to chase them down, and I dont want too many cavalry in my Roman stacks

[Stilgar CG]

Had the same situation when playing Romans (XGM 5.6.3., BI.exe, M/M). During the Punic wars I faced strong and ballanced armies (levy pikemen, cavalry, elephants and all that). After I kicked Cartage out of Italy and Sicily (where I fought still some balanced armies), I took their nearby islands. And Cartage got crazy and start sending stacks of peltasts to get back their islands. I fought two or three such stacks and then decided to move an army to Africa and took their capital (I had an upper hand at sea as well). And that was basically the end of Cartage.

Long story short, Stoneface might be right about the barrack level. But, looking back at that Cartage afair, I guess stacks of javeling-throwing units is a sign of fanancial weakness and kinda desperate attempts to stop your advance. So, czePowerslave, just try to take initiative and strike at their heart. I guess that would be the best way to get rid of those stacks.

P.S. Not sure about Greek-Macedon part, but as far as I can recall in my Thrace compaign, after I took half of Mac's cities, their armies became very rich in peltast-type units. So, this would confirm lack-of-money theory.

[Stoneface]

Can you take a look at their cities with fog of war off (console "toggle_fow") and perfect spy on (click the ?-button in the financial screen and then click showme). I wonder if the Carthies really build only first level barracks.

[czePowerslave]

Ill take a peek later on in the evening

[jinandjuice]

Personally I would recommend having some more cavalry units, even though Rome is an infantry faction. But there are always cheap ways around it.
1. You can change what units the Carthaginian Barracks can recruit under export_descr_building file.
2. You can change the distance at which they will begin running away at skirmish mode in export_descr_unit.
3. You can modify the Carthaginian tech tree, and allow them to upgrade their barracks at a lower cost or without the need of a higher-level city.

All of these require modding (or hacking, if you wish to call it). Nonetheless, it'll work.

[czePowerslave]

@ Stoneface - I have checked the cities with perfect spy and it seems that carthage is holding pretty much of Africa and the islands, iberia is kicking it out of spain atm, and in every city almost they have militia / auxiliary barracks and in most also city rax or similar, but their unit composition almost everywhere is this spearthrowing bunch...

@jinandjuice - well equites dont do really good against units labeled as spearmen although they fire javelins, cavalry gets kicked by them...and I dont plan on packing 4 generals just to have heavy cav

[Stoneface]

Javelins look good on the paper and are even effective in their way so the AI likes them. They still are rubbish troops who won't win a battle. Tell me, what are you facing exactly peltast, Numidean skirmishers, Lybian or civic light infantry or what else.

[czePowerslave]

Javelins look good on the paper and are even effective in their way so the AI likes them. They still are rubbish troops who won't win a battle. Tell me, what are you facing exactly peltast, Numidean skirmishers, Lybian or civic light infantry or what else.

numidian skirm, civic light, lybian skirmishers, sometimes those thureoporoi or that and doryophoroi or that

[beikon]

I'm playing easy battles and medium map, seems to happen to all who play medium map I guess.

I'm in the same problem with Carthagians they make full stack of army sometimes 2 stacks, and each group have 2 elephants, 2 infantry melee soilders who throw spears, 1-2 slingers, and the rest throwing spearmen, it happens most of the time.

I've taken their captial city and the south city of Carthago but I needed to kill over 10.000 people in Syracusa/e just to get my huge army to move, but they still attack my Islands, I've had some problems with the money and retraining my soilders again, that maxium new units thing made my position worse so I needed to make a new army which wasn't so great so I'm losing m best gold infantry fast because I can't retrain them so I'll probably fall back, but I hope those numidans are good warriors.

If You can handle with the northeren factions (Gaul, Germany) with small armies, you should be able to gather some army against Carthage, though it would be nice to see map how your positions are so we could see how to get rid of those Carthagians for you, and if you capture their capital city and burn it, it will probably help you from getting attacked from them, it should be nice idea, get more money and they get more rebels to fight.

But never take my answears 100% I never trust them, the professionals here must have some better way.

[Scutarii]

They spam peltasts because Carthage's cities at the beginning (barring Carthage itself, which is where the Sacred Band are coming from) are very low level. Which means they can only recruit peltasts, and are probably lowering the population there so that they can still only recruit peltasts. The light civics are also cheap, and with the javelins, better than any other unit at their barracks level. You also see many Theurophoroi because, at their barracks level, it is the strongest unit (militia phalangites being 8 att. and 8 def., and the AI pretty much only factors in stats and cost, not the fact that phalangites can do phalanx, at least not as much). So you have a combination of factors here, on top of which the AI loves the AP attribute for those peltasts.

[czePowerslave]

They spam peltasts because Carthage's cities at the beginning (barring Carthage itself, which is where the Sacred Band are coming from) are very low level. Which means they can only recruit peltasts, and are probably lowering the population there so that they can still only recruit peltasts. The light civics are also cheap, and with the javelins, better than any other unit at their barracks level. You also see many Theurophoroi because, at their barracks level, it is the strongest unit (militia phalangites being 8 att. and 8 def., and the AI pretty much only factors in stats and cost, not the fact that phalangites can do phalanx, at least not as much). So you have a combination of factors here, on top of which the AI loves the AP attribute for those peltasts.

is there some sort of recommended strategy against it? I mean with the fow off, there are like 3 full stacks on carthage mainland, which might explain the reason of this low level infantry units being spammed. I guess that building up fleet and blocking entire mediterrean might help...or any other suggestions ppl?

[Stoneface]

I took a second look at the Carthaginian rooster and found almost nothing but skirmishers at the lower levels. Militia phalangites is the only non-skirmisher troops that can be recruited from the first two levels of barracks in Africa and Sicily. And as Scutarii says the computer does not like phalanx units.
I did not have much trouble from the Carthaginians in my current campaign but this is on M/M so I do not know if I can be of any help but there are a few things you could try. First thing is a strong navy. It helps to delay or even destroy enemy armies. Blocking their ports can also help to keep their troop count low. Second thing is archers. They kill Numidian skirmishers and peltasts pretty quick. They are not good against Libyan/civic light infantry and Thureophoroi at least not from the front. Third thing is hastati as your main infantry. They can be retrained much easier than prinicipes and I doubt you have a real use for triarii. Remember that it takes only five turns to build militia barracks from nothing but up to 19 turns to build city barracks and switching culture can create quite some unrest.

[killmore]

I hate seeing large number of stacks attacking me all the time. The best way I found to stop it was to increase price and maintenance of all of the units in the game. I am working on utility that will do that.

[czePowerslave]

Costs are already high, if you would play SPQR you´d be scared by 4 stacks to fight every turn full stacks btw. If you want to hamper UP, you need to multiply strike at enemy cities...but then you need multiple armies --> high upkeep, high cost...and round n round

[killmore]

Costs are already high, if you would play SPQR you´d be scared by 4 stacks to fight every turn full stacks btw. If you want to hamper UP, you need to multiply strike at enemy cities...but then you need multiple armies --> high upkeep, high cost...and round n round

I play very regularly on double price, double maintenance.
I see fewer battles but they are decisive.
I see AI play just OK with higher prices.
It takes more turns to play because you have fewer armies. Great!
With normal prices I usually win before I see any high end troops or marian reforms. With high prices I get to higher level troops
I don't suggest everyone does it - but I really like it.

Sometimes I change the prices once I am about 50 turns into the game and I see multiple stacks spamed at me every turn. I just don't have time to play all these battles!

Sometimes once enemy looses 50% of provinces his empire erupts in uprisings. But in a couple of turns his rebel provinces are recaptured. I thought that was cool.