ERE Generals=SUPER HEAVILY armored. How to kill them?

[wickED_dude]

as the question suggests, I am having a bit of a problem with my game. Im playing as the...turkese sultanate (or something like that) on hard/hard, scale=huge, turn=50ish, and i control about 25 provinces
ANYWAYS,
i've got the ERE pretty beat cuz i've taken all their settlements except constantinople, but im having problems finishing them off cuz their remaining generals are way too strong for my units.
i tried attacking them with an army of the cheap ghazi units but somehow, the ERE faction leader (31 men total+150 spearmen) routed my entire ghazi army (well over 1500 men). so then i tried a different tactic: i built up a missile cavalry army and tried to shoot him down from afar...but the arrows seemed not to penetrate their armor!...i tried attacking him with a general of my own plus 2 other heavy cavalry units, but guess what?...he killed most of the men in my general's unit...so then i tried to make my general flee...but oddly enough, the enemy general caught up with me and killed my general. wtf?!

SO, here i am, asking how in the world do you stop/kill heavy cavalry? spearmen? haha i tell you! spears dont work against ERE cavalry! they're too strong! any other ideas aside from assasinating him? (actually i tried this already, but my higher ranked assasin (7 points) has almost no probability of sucess (i think it said like 9%)....anybody got any input here?

[wickED_dude]

"Rest assured we are trying to fix the issue for 1.1. All I can say right now. We want to give strength back to infantry and are already making inroads on increasing the quality of solid infantry vs cavalry. The issue of Superhero Bodyguards is something we definitely disagree with, so we are trying to find a way to fix the issue"

apparently im not the only one having problems with the "superhero bodyguards" lolol i love that name

[Bernem]

try javelins

[Taneda Santôka]

:hmmm: I've never tryed it but I wonder if the close bow is of any effect against them...

[Ahiga]

:hmmm: I've never tryed it but I wonder if the close bow is of any effect against them...

It should be given it's AP, but so are various javelins and crossbows.

Rest assured we're looking into the issue of superhero bodyguards. The problem may be related more to the trait points generals get that add on HP (if it effects the unit, not just the general), rather than the 2 hp itself - In custom battles I and others have easily managed to kill bodyguards with 2 hp. The fact that this changes in campaigns may elude to it being the fault of the traits, however it may not be.

[teh.frickin.pope]

Wait, so those traits that give like +8 wounds affect the entire unit? Holy crap.

[schatzi]

It should be given it's AP, but so are various javelins and crossbows.

Rest assured we're looking into the issue of superhero bodyguards. The problem may be related more to the trait points generals get that add on HP (if it effects the unit, not just the general), rather than the 2 hp itself - In custom battles I and others have easily managed to kill bodyguards with 2 hp. The fact that this changes in campaigns may elude to it being the fault of the traits, however it may not be.

i´ve played your great mod for many weeks and have tried out different setups, such as giving general maximum hp possible through ancillaries and traits. sofar it has only affected the general himself, not his bodyguards.

if for instance you change the hp of bodyguards to say 5, they can stomp through a fullstacked army.

so my conclusion is no, traits and ancillary hp bonuses don´t affect bodyguards.

[Cyrus the Virus]

If you can't kill them, join them.

[Sevachenko]

"This is CONSTANTINOPLE!". No, really sorry I couldn't contain myself. Try using javelins and close bow.

[Lupu]

Use your own BGs, and a javelin unit before cherge, your own gen is only a bit weaker than the ERE one.

[colin666]

I never had any problem killing them with the turkish sultunate, I just used a bunch of close bows and then charged them from 3 sides with my bg and 2 other hc units.
A few hundred shots won't do much but once you get like 15 units of ha's shooting they drop really fast.

[Maelkoch]

Engage with your own BG unit from the front, then javelin-shower them from the back, and charge home repeatedly with heavy cavalry.

Orrsumthenn...

[Ahiga]

I'm not sure. It may or may not.

[Captain Spanky]

To take out the ERE general as the Turkish Sultanate, I used crossbows en masse while they approach you, then charge with a unit of ghazis. The ghazis get eaten alive, but the point is for them to tie up the general and stop him charging something more valuable. Once he's engaged, charge him with a unit of Tirpan Azaps. They cant take a cavalry charge, but I find them very effective against cavalry all the same. Have a general on hand just in case things go sour.

[Manco]

How about ,as a possible solution, giving the unit only 1HP but giving every general an automatic trait that gives them +3HP?
That way the BG isn't overpowered, it won't be used as invincible HC, and when you do charge your general will still survive normally.

[Ahiga]

Possible solution. Another that may be investigated is 2hp for some bodyguards and 1hp for others. Since only 1 hp would utterly be a disadvantage for Sindh, Oman, and others, and be a mild disadvantage for cataphract bodyguards.

[redz27m]

i dont get it guys...im playing KOJ and i never had a problem killing those bodyguards(VH/H), sure sometimes it takes me about 3 to 4 units of my army to kill them, 2spearmen up front 2 cav on their behind(ass?.) but dont you think its quite interesting when those bodyguards put up a though fight?really i get high when i have some difficulties in killing them and anyway they should be hard to kill because as they say its an ellite guard, right?
now if they downplay those guards by the up coming versions... i wouldnt be surprise when some post then would be..BODYGUARDS TOO EASY TO KILL...... bah i would prefer them to stay that way, harder more fun more killings done!!!!

[Manco]

Don't forget as KOJ you get über spearmen fast and plentiful. Combine that with powerful charge cavalry and it's no wonder you're not having that much difficulty. And still, playing as KOJ myself, I don't have trouble killing BG's too, but I have destroyed entire armies with 21 men, where's the fun and realism in that? It's maybe to my advantage but still a bit of a immersion breaker...

[Faris ad Din]

KOJ spearmen are über and incredible... oh yeah, and their knights are über and incredible. You can recruit Armored Sergeant Spearmen from tier 2 barracks in WOODEN CASTLES as well as the solid Outremer Swordsmen. At tier 3 in regular stone Castles you can recruit Latium Halberdiers, with their armor piercing polearms who slice up heavy cavalry nice 'n good. At tier 4 you get axe-and-shield wielding Poulain Men-at-Arms and their axes are armor piercing as well.

Large Cities like Jerusalem also can train Armored Sergeant Spearmen. Basically the KOJ is an Armored Sergeant Spearmen recruiting factory (recruitment cost 680, upkeep 300) and spearmen like that are HARD to recruit with other factions (for Oman, the equivalent Dismounted Noble Lancers - 680 recruitment/300 upkeep - are tier 4 barracks).

Cities can recruit Knights Hospitallers, Castles can recruit Knights Templar. All in all you are THE faction with the toughest and most plentiful spearmen and heavy cavalry to match any other faction - it is a mistake to take on KOJ armies with primarily cavalry.

On the other hand Ghazis would be systematically trampled by even medium cavalry, let alone bodyguards. Few other factions have easy access to top-notch spearmen and armor-piercing units (Ghazis may be armor-piercing but they have little armor and weak attack).

Speaking of which, a good way to kill the SuperheroCavalryOfNeutroniumArmor is not to just field masses and masses of spears - fielding weaker spears is asking for slaughter no matter how many you have. You'll need to get the most armored spearmen, and their job is to pin the cavalry down, not kill them; get a few good units of armor-piercing weapons on the bodyguards right after. Two-handed units like:

ERE: Pelekyphoroi Axemen (2h), Varangian Warriors (2h axe)
Turkish Sultanate: Tirpan Azaps (2h axe), Janissary Heavy Infantry (halberd), Ottoman Heavy Infantry (axes?), even Frontiersmen (1h axe/javelin) if you field sheer numbers of them...
Ayyubids: Thaqlah Infantry (2h axe. Good price!), Mamluk Tabardariyya (2h axe). Best spearmen are the mediocre Jund, so prepare to lose many of both spearmen and axemen...
KOJ: Latium Halberdiers, Poulain Men-at-Arms (1h axe), Dismounted Knights of Outremer (1h axe), Dismounted Templar (2h axemen)
Armenia: lack of AP units... save the tier 1 Caucasian Mountaineer Axemen (2h axe). Flood the enemy bodyguard with lots of Mountaineer Axemen? Use good spearmen like Samnapah, any lower spearmen like Ashrakazor will be slaughtered...
Makuria: Dembus Macemen! (2h mace); Makurian Spearmen if you can instead of Tigrayan Levies (or else use a truckload of Tigrayan spearmen)
Georgia: NO ARMOR PIERCING UNITS - go back to the "swarm 'em with spearmen" strategy
Kypchaks: Kypchak Noble Axemen (1h axe), or HA them and then swarm them with your huge Kypchak bodyguard units...
Abbasids: Faris Heavy Infantry (1h axe), Abna Infantry (1h mace and javelins!)
Oman: NO AP UNITS AGAIN (and this is my favorite faction) - I would use truckloads of Arab Spearmen and any AP mercenaries you can find.
Great Seljuks: Turkoman Macemen with 3 attack does not cut it - Ghulams use maces right? Use those...
Khwarezm: Sughdian Assault Infantry (2h axes)
Ghazni: No AP infantry but top-of-the-line spearmen. If the heavy cavalry have maces use those, execute a successful charge from the rear after pinning down the stinkin' bodyguards with your spearmen.
Ghorids: Ghazi Heavy Axemen (2h. Such a well-armored unit with excellent morale and attack for 350 florins - what the heck? Because the Ghorids lack spears?) and use a few cheap disposable units of any kind (swordsmen or skirmishers/archers, whatever) to absorb charges, tie enemy cavalry down and distract them. Don't waste your own cavalry for this role...
Sindh: Lots and lots of Sammat macemen (1h mace with 5 attack)? What a mediocre roster...
Rajputs: Ghandara Axemen (2h axe) or simply use elephants!

To be honest I haven't tried this (!) but by now I can forecast battles by thinking alone... 2h armor piercing weapons were always good against armored units in Medieval 1, Rome, and M2, AS LONG AS the armor piercing units are not the ones receiving the most damage. They work very well when the targeted armored unit is pinned down in combat with another unit (either a disposable trash unit or a good defensive one, with spears) and they charge the flanks or the back. And in numbers.

Fighting cavalry with spearmen alone is like fighting infantry with archers alone, or spearmen with swordsmen alone - it works but you are lacking unit diversity and flexibility. Spearmen + armor piercing units I can forecast will make quick work of any armored unit. You don't even need to outnumber them if you play well.

[Faris ad Din]

Hot damn... I did a little test of my own as Ayyubids against ERE bodyguard (15 Romanoi), 1 unit of Jund spearmen (150) and 1 unit of Thaqlah Infantry (2h axe) (120). My results were stunning to me...

Heavy cavalry with a phenomenal charge, particularly bodyguards like the ERE are incredibly high-powered - a charge of 15 Romanoi bodyguards against 150 Jund Spearmen killed about 50 of them outright and another 30 very quickly (about 4 seconds?). 0 losses for the bodyguards. (How can a single charge of 15 horses kill 50 infantry? Spearing multiple men? Should I put them on loose formation for better results?)

I already had my Thaqlah 2h axes, who were sheltering behind the spearmen, already running before the Romanoi even hit them, and swung them around the side to try to get behind them but I only flanked them (the Jund were at 80/150 men and time was running out for a full 180 degree turn, I only did 110 degrees or so). The Jund killed NOT ONE SINGLE BODYGUARD, if any Jund were to even attack any bodyguard they were likely killed before they had a chance to even poke them, they were being killed so rapidly. So my axemen swung around and swarmed the flank and then the Romanoi started dropping to their wicked 2h AP attacks (11 attack): one... two... three... I killed 8 of 15 bodyguards before they ran off to recharge.

7 Romanoi charged, but they charged my 100 axemen - 40 were killed outright!!! But my surviving axemen hung on and and killed more bodyguards before the bodyguard routed. The axemen fell even more quickly than the spearmen... But in the end I beat 1050 florins worth of bodyguard with 880 of infantry (570 axemen + 310 spearmen)

So in short: (Most) spearmen can't kill cavalry for what they're worth, certainly not 29 defense ERE bodyguards. AP units, CAN (2h better than 1h!). However, 2h units are even more vulnerable to cavalry charges. Don't use spearmen alone if you can help it, use COMBINED FORCES!