Saving faction and unit slots , healthy discussion please !

[whitewolfmxc]

As topic , i would like others that are decent and rational people to talk here about if we are / how to :

1) free up faction slots ,

2) save unit limit, by reducing some unneeded ones

3) some suggestions on units wither its stats / belonging faction or others related issues

So please keep it clean here , be nice /constructive and don't flame ! Moderators please keep eye on the progress

Heres my thoughts on the issue mentioned above (will update ones from others here if they are constructive )

PS: if you think this is constructive and helpful please + rep XD




A) By saving unit slots :

1) http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=161502

a thread on how to do it with papal states


2) By merging templars with KOJ (another section below will give details)


3) Getting rid of some unneeded mercenary's

( the idea is only keep mercs that are famous for thier ability but not just to make them too convenient for players

example is Irish long bow men are famous , but the Irish spear man isn't what made the Irish famous ,so getting rid of Irish spear men)

4) Some units should share same model but different skins (i know it sucks , but lets be realistic) i vote on applying on mercs and other same units but different models

like Billmen, the english have 4 kinds of billmen.
a) Billmen, recruited in castles
b) Heavy Billmen, recruited in castles
c) bilmen militia, recruited in cities
d) heavy billmen militia, recruited in cities

couldn't this be solved with using billmen and bill militia and giving them more armour upgrades??????

by Naked emperor


B) Freeing faction slots :


1) OK to the hottest topic around for merging KOJ + Templars + Hospitallers

read here : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...87#post2992487


3) Know the following is not really free upslots but its related to factions,

The idea of "Free States faction" to replace the rebels ? so some of the "rebel" settlements could get some local mercs units as its unit roaster ( so they actually have the largest unit roaster LOL) and it can resemble some of the minor factions that didnt make it in game

Like flanders / Armenian etc etc (so thats why i said the mercs should be more of a local famous unit more than homogeneous ones)


C) Unit problems :

1) area of recruitment in between factions, so french conquering england will get long bowmen ! XD this should compensate some of the lost units due to in section A)4 , just need more units with more skins (like the long bowmen)

[Caesar Clivus]

Timurids have already been taken out to make room for the new 6.0 factions.

[numerosdecimus]

Timurids have already been taken out to make room for the new 6.0 factions.

They were? Could you show me a link please?

I though we could still put the possibility of making the Timurids an evolution of the K.E. in later stages of the game, this could gave given the mod one more free faction slot. :hmmm:


As for new unit slots, there's one way to free up more units slots, it's by removing the unecessary Castile-Leonise units in Portugal and Aragon for instance.

You could remove from Portugal the Dismounted/mounted Santiago Knights and the Dismounted/mounted Conquistadores. Castile-Leon on the other hand could lose the Lusitanian skirmishers and Aragon could lose the Dismounted/mounted Santiago Knights, among other Castile-Leonise units.

There's too much generalization between local factions, it unecessary fills up too many faction slots.

[TheSavage]

Pavise Crossbowmen and Pavise Crossbow Militia... the stats are almost exactly the same.

[The King Of Peasants]

Well just knocking off half of the Eres units and redoing the rest would free up around 10 slots. For instance they didn't rely very heavily on infantry in ss they have 6 heavy infantry and 3 spear 3 archers(used only by them) 3 horse archers and 5 heavy cav plus general.

They really only need maybe a staple spear unit a staple, and elite sword unit varangians maybe an unique archer 1-2 horse archers and maybe 3-4 unique cav as they didn't use much infantry anyways.

Also get rid of a lot of the non unique western cav and some egyptian units from kingdoms. The less units the ai has to choose from the better they do. One last thing everyone seems to be suggesting removing peasant/militia type infantry when in at least the early-mid game period the vast majority of western infantry were rather low quality.

I definitely agree that making each faction have 7-8 unique units would be great for balance and players would use them a lot more!

[Erlinggra]

Pavise Crossbowmen and Pavise Crossbow Militia... the stats are almost exactly the same.

sure? milita units usually have lower attack rate and morale

[Skaven]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSavage
Pavise Crossbowmen and Pavise Crossbow Militia... the stats are almost exactly the same.

sure? milita units usually have lower attack rate and morale

True, but that's really the only thing they have different, I think it would be a lot better to find a value in the middle of both and than make a new unit.

I can't be precise but just by removing all militia plus Levys and such I won something like 45 new solts which allowed me to make for example the Moors a faction that actually is pretty interesting to play now with a much better roster.

One of the most interesting examples is for example the difference between Italian Spear Militia and Italian Militia (I think it's this two not sure), in terms of textures/models the only difference between them is the fact that one starts with a higher upgrade than the other... .

If you check faction by faction like I did, you'll find a lot of repeated units that really make no sense at all... check fo example the Mongols, they have 2 archers and 2 cavalry units that are exactely the same and worth that that they have one more of each not available in custom battles with the _horde sufix on them available in the script inside the desc_start file it's really a big waste.

So I believe that with some work and organization it would be possible to make not only SS but a lot of other mods with a lot more variety in units which at least to me is one of the most important things in our game.

[whitewolfmxc]

Thanks , first post updated

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

As to question 1, there is already a poll going on here, please post your requests here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=162401

[Erlinggra]

Personally i am for removing order knights. Mainly for banalce issues (in my opinion at least) they are way to powerful. They are better than feudal knights and it is possible to get them earlier.

Also i find it unrealistic to use knights from the 1400's in the 1200's.

[Naked Emperor]

Billmen, the english have 4 kinds of billmen.
a) Billmen, recruited in castles
b) Heavy Billmen, recruited in castles
c) bilmen militia, recruited in cities
d) heavy billmen militia, recruited in cities

couldn't this be solved with using billmen and bill militia and giving them more armour upgrades??????

[whitewolfmxc]

Billmen, the english have 4 kinds of billmen.
a) Billmen, recruited in castles
b) Heavy Billmen, recruited in castles
c) bilmen militia, recruited in cities
d) heavy billmen militia, recruited in cities

couldn't this be solved with using billmen and bill militia and giving them more armour upgrades??????

Exactly , thats my point in A) 4

[Australia]

Billmen, the english have 4 kinds of billmen.
a) Billmen, recruited in castles
b) Heavy Billmen, recruited in castles
c) bilmen militia, recruited in cities
d) heavy billmen militia, recruited in cities

couldn't this be solved with using billmen and bill militia and giving them more armour upgrades??????

I agree 4 is too much.

Letting them have 2, 1 heavy and one normal recruitable in both castles and cities while continuing to have free up-keep in cities would be good.

[Antioch]

what about slav mercs??? What are they good at anyway??

[Skaven]

There's plenty of units that can be taken out, for example the Mongols have at least 2 units of cavalry and archers that are exactely the same. England as 4 Billmen which are too much as stated before, with some organization I think it would be easy to introduce a lot of new units.

[Roboute Guilliman]

replacing all those cavalry units like border horse from scotland, hidire from ireland with one unit named scout cavelry or regular light cavelry
indeed some merc units are for the waste, like welsh spearmen, slav mercs,

another idea would be replacing the crusader units with a mixture of chapterhouse units, (for exemple HRE can recruit teutonic knights for its crusades)

you could bring in more unique units for other factions

factions, i think we are fine there, with zuma making his mini mods replacing factions a certain player doesnt like with another faction

[Brammius]

I would say, merge templars and KOJ, remove Ireland for a more important faction and some factions really have redundant units like Moors, they have 4 spearmen: Lamtuna, Berber and Nubian spearmen and dism arabs. I guess there are more cases like this. Also I would opt to remove a good amount of mercenaries, because there are too many to make use of the all.

[Iscariott]

I would say, merge templars and KOJ, remove Ireland for a more important faction and some factions really have redundant units like Moors, they have 4 spearmen: Lamtuna, Berber and Nubian spearmen and dism arabs. I guess there are more cases like this. Also I would opt to remove a good amount of mercenaries, because there are too many to make use of the all.

For the moors drop nubian spearmen. Berber and militia spears from cities(and urban militia which are great), dism arabs from castles. Free's up a unit slot and keeps a light/"heavy" spear mix for the faction.

[Sher Khan]

Some units may be redundant.

1) Instead of having Sergeant Spearmen AND Armored Sergeants, just get rid of the Armored Seargeants, give Sergeant Spearmen a base armor value of 2, and give the Sergeants three armor upgrade levels.

This will inevitably make their stats the exact same as Armored Sergeants while still retaining their lightly armored status at the early game.

2) Do you really need an Armored Swordsman unit when adding England to the Dismounted Chivalric Knights list will do just fine? Same stats and usage, even same price.

3) Do you really need two different units of Levy Spearmen for England and the Mongols? Couldn't you do away with these units altogether and give them spear militia in their place? Likewise, Mongol Foot Archers and Dismounted Archers are closely redundant, and could simply do with a combining and averaging of their stats into one single foot archer unit.

4) Why not do away with units like 'mercenary_blank' and simply apply the mercenary_unit tag to the original unit? Instead of two slots for Mercenary_Arquebusiers and normal Arquebusiers, have just one with Arquebusiers, but add the slave faction to it and apply the mercenary_unit tag.

There are several cases of this.

5) Remove peasants altogether. Town Militia serve their purpose just as well in both form and function. That's at least 4 unit slots free right there.

6) Free some space by removing some mercs that are neither recruited if at all by players or rarely seen, like Flagellants (I think I might have recruited a grand total of 2 of these ever since M2TW came out).

[Skaven]

Some units may be redundant.

1) Instead of having Sergeant Spearmen AND Armored Sergeants, just get rid of the Armored Seargeants, give Sergeant Spearmen a base armor value of 2, and give the Sergeants three armor upgrade levels.

This will inevitably make their stats the exact same as Armored Sergeants while still retaining their lightly armored status at the early game.

2) Do you really need an Armored Swordsman unit when adding England to the Dismounted Chivalric Knights list will do just fine? Same stats and usage, even same price.

3) Do you really need two different units of Levy Spearmen for England and the Mongols? Couldn't you do away with these units altogether and give them spear militia in their place? Likewise, Mongol Foot Archers and Dismounted Archers are closely redundant, and could simply do with a combining and averaging of their stats into one single foot archer unit.

4) Why not do away with units like 'mercenary_blank' and simply apply the mercenary_unit tag to the original unit? Instead of two slots for Mercenary_Arquebusiers and normal Arquebusiers, have just one with Arquebusiers, but add the slave faction to it and apply the mercenary_unit tag.

There are several cases of this.

5) Remove peasants altogether. Town Militia serve their purpose just as well in both form and function. That's at least 4 unit slots free right there.

6) Free some space by removing some mercs that are neither recruited if at all by players or rarely seen, like Flagellants (I think I might have recruited a grand total of 2 of these ever since M2TW came out).

Totally agree on everything, doing all those steps will probably open up slots for 20 or 30 new units.

An easy way to do this is to do it like I did which is to remove the Militia units and than replace them by the ones recruited in Castles which in 75% of the cases are exactly the same unit but with one more upgrade, This goes from infantry to Archers and Crossbowmen, we are actually using since vanilla a lot of repeated units where the only thing that changes is the UI Card and the name of the unit.