Are two-handed weapon warriors worthwhile?

[daniel2008]

I just can't get when to use them. Pikemen are great in defensive use and have great momentum versus cavalry. Shield wielders are versatile, could be used both offensive & defensive use. Spearmans could be effectly used against cavalry and most of them are pretty cheap. Then, are there any pros of them like DEK/DFK? They are not cheap. They don't have great charge bonus. What's the point of using them?:hmmm:

[DeaDBolT]

If im correct two handed weapons have a bonus vs armor, combine this with charge the rear -> retreat -> charge again and they work pretty nice vs infantry, even the heavy armored ones. Plus they arent weak vs spears like cavalry.

but i agree Cavalry has much better charge, armour and speed, i dont really see the use of two-handers that much myself. Also, nothing is a satisfactory as a good cavalry charge

[Blakdust]

I mainly use two handers just cuz i think there cool, but they are handy to
save some in reserve in big battles, tire the enemy out then throw some fresh 2h's into the flank.

there good for causing routs an there the only shock infantry really

[Marcus Fulvius]

If im correct two handed weapons have a bonus vs armor, combine this with charge the rear -> retreat -> charge again and they work pretty nice vs infantry, even the heavy armored ones. Plus they arent weak vs spears like cavalry.

but i agree Cavalry has much better charge, armour and speed, i dont really see the use of two-handers that much myself. Also, nothing is a satisfactory as a good cavalry charge

nothing is as frustrating as a good cavalry rush into your own archers stakes either.

thats something units like dismounted english knights dont have to worry about.

put those DEK's on your flanks in the second line, wait for your main line to get the enemy embroiled in a bitter fight, then release your DEK's (or zweihanders, or whatever)... just as effective as a cavalry charge, but with none of the threat of impaling your own general or knights.

its especially effective as england... since the enemy is stuck between a rock and a hard place. they ca either let you shoot them with impunity, hoping youll make the first charge... or they can charge and then get their flanks swarmed by heavy infantry that isn't checked by stakes.

[DeaDBolT]

nothing is as frustrating as a good cavalry rush into your own archers stakes either.

thats something units like dismounted english knights dont have to worry about.

Yeah, i've had that several times, gotta learn to be more careful...

Anyways i had never thought about the fact that cavalry can kill itself in a charge and infantry generally dont, you got a point there.

[Ravager]

Hi, i've been a Total War fan waaay back to Shogun when i was 12. Nice to meet all!

I havent tried 2h units that much, but i've had DGKs and Zweihanders doing well holding chokepoints during sieges against much more numerous infantry like Aztecs. So i guess they're all right against infantry other than ranged units.

However, i don't know about vanilla M2TW(haven't touched it for almost 6 months), but in Kingdoms they have very high charge values(usually 9, compared to others 3 or 5 even for cav) and i've seen a unit of charging Berdiche Axemen shave 20 units during first contact straight off some Highland Pikemen IIRC in a frontal charge. So, they must be the best shock troops around.

[s0meguy]

So, they must be the best shock troops around.

If you completely exclude cavalry to even the most cheapest ones from your definition of shock troops then yeah.

[Marcus Fulvius]

Yeah, i've had that several times, gotta learn to be more careful...

Anyways i had never thought about the fact that cavalry can kill itself in a charge and infantry generally dont, you got a point there.

also good for wall defense in seiges...

when the enemy seige tower dumps a bunch of DFK's on your walls and your own guys are busy fighting... send those 2h infantry around the other side and slam them into the back of the enemy so they're getting it from both ends... they cant push forward against your defensive unit, and their rear is being demolished by that charge from your 2h.

personally, i use 2h all the time in even my field battles. in fact, i prefer them over cavalry for my flanking charges when im playing england, specifically due to stakes. partly due to the whole stakes issue... partly due to how the hobilar is one of the best light cav units in game (and with the 2h infantry serving the role of heavy charge unit that heavy cav normally do... it gives me room to use hobs in my army, and as a result allows me more options, many unexpected to my enemy).

[nodey]

charge the rear -> retreat -> charge again

You can charge the rear with just about any mid-tier unit and have the same effect.
Thus, the point of this type of unit is to charge the flank or head on, because not only is the rear charge a waste of time leading to the decimation of the unit already engaged with the target, but it also opens your 2H unit to a counter charge. And with most 2H units having significantly lower armour than 1H knights you can count on a great portion of the unit going to waste.
The same is to be expected with a frontal charge too, but in that case at least you wont have to sacrifice another unit.

I find the best way to use these troops, if ever, is to have a spear unit to their side that flanks the enemy together with them, and covers their ass.

I only use them on occasion out of aesthetical reasons, i would much rather have a unit of Pronoiai than a Varangian guard in a siege. Or any situation for that matter.

I guess if infantry charges worked properly id have a reason to use these units more.

[dstarsboy]

Two handers are excellent for assaulting castle walls via ladders/seige gear. Other than that, they're pretty much worthless.

[Iscariott]

Depending on the units involved I use 2 handers to actually *kill* cav after they hit the spear line. Also back charges, side charges, and if they are mercs: front charges

All in all 2 handers rarely seem to pan out in the medievil 2 engine, but they're better than nothing. And the AP ones can bleed heavy infantry somewhat decently.

[Marcus Fulvius]

Depending on the units involved I use 2 handers to actually *kill* cav after they hit the spear line. Also back charges, side charges, and if they are mercs: front charges

All in all 2 handers rarely seem to pan out in the medievil 2 engine, but they're better than nothing. And the AP ones can bleed heavy infantry somewhat decently.

2 hand units arent meant to be line troops.

theyre meant to be your counterattackers... or your initial shock troops who charge into your enemy just seconds before your main line hits em.

DEK, highland nobles, tabriyaa, forlon hope and zweihanders all are like this. they have the power of a cavalry rush, without the vulnerability to stakes, spears and pikes(also gunpowder weapons don't have as much of an effect on em, since they dont have horses which are particularly vulnerable to being scared by gunpowder).

billmen are also very effective when used properly. they're your anti cav 2 handers. they cant take the initial cav charge, but when they move in on a cav unit that is just finishing a charge into a spear unit, well, those billmen will take down that cav unit as easily as a cav unit would take down a peasant unit.

so remember, 2h means counter attack.

[Australia]

Well if I ever use them it's hitting cav in the rear and using them in towers.

[Lord_Calidor]

Poleaxes are seriously nerfed in SS6.0 (30% less dmg compared to RC 1.4/1.5), so until Point Blank releases an update, they don't seem very useful.

[Troubleshooter]

I find two-handed weapon infantry a bit too fragile. Often vulnerable to missiles and easily tossed aside by charging cavalry.

The only two-handed weapon infantry i use are pikemen.

[s0meguy]

Uh.. so can anybody shed some light on how they were used historically?

[Caesar Clivus]

Uh.. so can anybody shed some light on how they were used historically?

Pikes: kind of obvious really.

Halberds were used to knock mounted warriors off of their horses. Some halberds were equipped with nasty hooks to help with this.

Two-handed swords were often used against pike and halberd infantry, the huge blades being used to knock the heavy pikes out of the way and/or trying to hack the ends off of the pikes/halberds. While it'd be great if this could be implemented in the game, I would be surprised if it could be pulled off effectively.

[s0meguy]

Halberds were used to knock mounted warriors off of their horses. Some halberds were equipped with nasty hooks to help with this.

wow that must have been quite painful, it looks more like the halberds were more used to pierce the mounted warriors but I get its use now thx. I would also imagine that halberds can be used to take down elephants if it got enough of those things sticking under its hide.

Two-handed swords were often used against pike and halberd infantry, the huge blades being used to knock the heavy pikes out of the way and/or trying to hack the ends off of the pikes/halberds. While it'd be great if this could be implemented in the game, I would be surprised if it could be pulled off effectively.

Pikes were used against infantry (two handeds) too? Looks like it'd be a better idea to just drop the pikes and take out the swords, those 2 handeds look pretty heavy and slow so the agile light infantry would totally own them.

[Dontom]

HRE has Zwei Handers and Dismounted Gothic Knights which are extremely strong.

[Supernaut2k]

in real life, zweihanders had little more than a ceremonial duty, while its true, some landschnekts were trained to use a zweihander, the overwhelming majority used pikes and arquebusiers, the imagery of 1000 mad germans charging with zwiehanders was quite rare in fact, and alot of the zweihanders use was ceremonial, as someone has stated, they were supposed to cut off the heads of pikes, but this is probably alot more difficult than it sounds, and their application is in question by many modern historians,