More Phalanx Questions

[Scatha]

Greetings everyone,

For my first post to this forum I have more questions about the phalanx.

The main disadvantage I see in the game is the unit cannot run while in phalanx formation. So, how does the phalanx ever use its charge bonus? If it is kept out of the phalanx formation (to run and charge) what is the disadvantage? IOW do the attack or defense numbers drop when out of phalanx formation?

What is the bonus against cavalry anyway? I saw the number somewhere. Is that lost when out of phalanx formation? Is there a minus against infantry or is that the basic attack? What is the attack value with secondary weapons (ie, swords)?

In reading the forum its obvious the thing to do is tightly group your phalanx and cover the flanks. Both the Macedonians and the Carthaginians have good cavalry in combination but lack missile troops to compete with say Egyptian and Roman archers. So, what are some tactics in the situation where the opponent has lots of archers?


Assaulting a city defended by archers comes to mind. My usual tactic is to hit the walls with Roman infantry with either ladders or siege towers in at least two places, take the walls and any pesky towers (including the gate), and then have the archers follow to the wall walk to use the enemy's own walls height against him. What are some variations of this method with infantry that a) isn’t as good in general melee to fight troops on the wall, b) does not have a missile weapon like the Roman pila to throw at troops inside the city from the wall walk and c) does not have archers in support ? Take the gate only (to avoid boiling oil), smash the gate with onagers or a battering ram, and then charge with the cavalry?

As an aside I was putting my slingers in front due to a lot of forum traffic about friendly fire with the sling’s flat trajectory. That leaves the slingers too vulnerable to charge (they don’t retreat fast enough). So, I’ve tried slingers behind now and I don’t seem to get any friendly fire causalities. Any comments (I turn off fire at will when my own units are engaged with the enemy units likely to be targets).

Thanks in advance.

[GeneralChaos]

Hey, welcome aboard
(First a disclaimer- I've played RTW for about 2 months and change, so hunting around for some more opinions wouldn't hurt)

Greetings everyone,

The main disadvantage I see in the game is the unit cannot run while in phalanx formation. So, how does the phalanx ever use its charge bonus? If it is kept out of the phalanx formation (to run and charge) what is the disadvantage? IOW do the attack or defense numbers drop when out of phalanx formation?

Phalanxes really shouldn't be using their charge bonuses. Once pikemen/hoplites aren't in phalanx formation, they're virtually useless and rout quickly. They get a charge bonus, but to get it you need to handicap them to the point where the bonus is probably worthless. Maybe if you're charging archers and you can catch them- but 95% of the time I wouldn't.

What is the bonus against cavalry anyway? I saw the number somewhere. Is that lost when out of phalanx formation? Is there a minus against infantry or is that the basic attack? What is the attack value with secondary weapons (ie, swords)?

Phalanxes will slaughter cavalry, but only in phalanx formation while facing the cavalry.

So, what are some tactics in the situation where the opponent has lots of archers?

Macedon and Carthage doesn't seem to have long range archers/slingers which are all that bad. If anything, I'd use them in an archer battle so that nobody has arrows for long. Much of the time I use light cavalry to try and pick off archers too.

Assaulting a city defended by archers comes to mind. My usual tactic is to hit the walls with Roman infantry with either ladders or siege towers in at least two places, take the walls and any pesky towers (including the gate), and then have the archers follow to the wall walk to use the enemy's own walls height against him. What are some variations of this method with infantry that a) isn’t as good in general melee to fight troops on the wall, b) does not have a missile weapon like the Roman pila to throw at troops inside the city from the wall walk and c) does not have archers in support ? Take the gate only (to avoid boiling oil), smash the gate with onagers or a battering ram, and then charge with the cavalry?

Catapulting both wall segments surrounding enemy infantry will kill them all I believe. With phalanx troops I always use sap points so both cavalry and hoplites in formation can enter the city and bulldoze the enemy. With a combination of the two, you could completely circumvent the infantry on the walls and make them come down to fight you or rush towards the square.

So, I’ve tried slingers behind now and I don’t seem to get any friendly fire causalities. Any comments (I turn off fire at will when my own units are engaged with the enemy units likely to be targets).

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Once you do engage, if you can swing your slingers around the flank and attack the rear of the enemy line that could help.

Hope this helps some.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

Well there's not much I can say to that. It's a pretty good reply GeneralChaos. Only one point: Macedon has Cretan Archers, and Carthage has Balearic Slingers, but I think that's probably mercenary only.

[fourganger]

All Spear armed troops have bonuses against cavalry, provided they engage from the front. If you take your troops out of the Phalanx formation then they will generally use swords of daggers when engaged in combat. These are less useful against cavalry.

[Scatha]

So GeneralChaos and fourganger, let me see if I got this right: The charge bonus only works if the unit can run into the fight which can only happen out of phalanx formation (makes sense) and the bonus vs cavalry only works when in phalanx formation. Furthermore the phalanx is vulnerable to route when out of formation, and that is when the secondary weapon is used (with hoplites one cannot use the ‘alt’ attack to switch between weapons; instead one takes the unit out of or puts the unit in phalanx formation).

Now using the one of these units on a city wall will be out of formation naturally. Can any of them stand up to legionnaires in that type of combat (otherwise it’s not much use assaulting the walls)? It seems to me that if there is an automatic moral penalty for phalanx type troops when out of formation that fighting on the wall is a serious disadvantage.

When I look at unit stats the attack must refer to pikes. Other than the cavalry bonus, does this value change whether the unit is in or out of formation? And what is the attack value when using the secondary weapon? And, what, exactly, is the bonus vs cavalry? Do all spear / pike troops have the exact same bonus?

Does the AI exploit the slight gap between units that results from the ‘group line’ formation commands such that I need to bother with pushing my phalanx units tight together?

I will try sapping. The phalanx on the ground in city streets with its flanks protected by buildings really comes into its own.

[fourganger]

On walls, Legionnaires are up there with Semone Sachaz and Thracian infantry for lethality. Your phalanx troops will not prevail against them. Sapping is without a doubt your best option.

Your phalanx isn't necessarily more vulnerable to routing when out of formation- there's no moral change. They do however lack their frontal defence, and therefore will take casualties from the front.

[Knight of Judgment]

can you post any screen with the phalanx super box ? becouse my enemy attack in the most open place and manage to kill some of my soldiers .

[fourganger]

can you post any screen with the phalanx super box ? becouse my enemy attack in the most open place and manage to kill some of my soldiers .

Do you mean the most open part of your formation? Or in terms of picking a battlefield?