Cvria Ivlia, Consulate of Habitus/Africanus (II)

[We shall fwee...Wode]

I think to take Greece herself is risky. By all means, take the war to them, but to strike their heartlands would be foolish. Yes, they may be weakly defended, but after the surprise, they will pour men on, and no matter how strong our men, we will run out. You must also ask what good it does for Italy. We will still be fighting in Italy, but also in Greece

Taking Illyria however means that a succesful offensive doesn't create a battle line in Italy and a small single entity in greece surounded by bloodthirsty fools, but a strong battle line AWAY from Italia and Cisalpina Gaul! Thats not to mention the enormous wealth those hills contain and the pirates that no doubt man the greek navy that hail from that place.

But that is not to say we should abandon attacks on greece, oh no, we should use our naval supremacy to hit their purse strings and damage morale. You can't fight without money friends, and a blockade of ALL the hellas would result in several thousands of pieces of greek goods and gold on the sea bed or in our hands. Starve them of the money, and the armies shall thin and die!

[Caesar Rex]

Senator Publius.
Friends of mine tell me there are literally thousands of greeks on our border.
If the consuls are successful in pushing them back, well then...
the greeks would be chasing our legions across their own lands.
And in a wake of destruction we will leave them a whole lot poorer.

Servius Labienus 'the younger' (32)
Senator of Rome

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

Our navies may be large, Publius, but unfortunately they cannot possibly blockade every single Greek port. Our naval forces would be too thinly spread and prone to attack and defeat. If we want to force the Greeks to make peace, we must launch expeditions into the Greek lands. This war must end on our terms, whatever the cost may be. If the Greeks win the cost will be higher than any price we pay in a victorious war.

[Winter]

I must agree with senator Publicola on one point. An invasion of Greece proper would do nothing but direct the full fury of the Greek empire upon us, resulting in a great deal of death in that theatre.

Instead, why not take a border province we can reinforce by land and sea? One that will provide us an economic boon, and natural borders to hold the Greeks at bay, and to keep once the war is ended?

Senator Publicola, idealistic as he is, is right in selecting Illyria for these reasons. Depriving the Greeks of this land would show them that we are not to be trifled with. Also, if they refuse peace after we capture Illyria, it will provide us with a secure stronghold to send armies into northern Greece, with the ability to supply them overland as well as by sea.

Also, capture of the region would deny the Greeks access to the Adriatic sea, severely limiting their ability to conduct naval offenses against eastern Italy.

I must wholeheartedly endorse this plan.

[Caesar Rex]

If we are struggling to hold a border no more than six miles in length how do propose we hold one that is over a 100?

Servius Labienus 'the younger' (32)
Senator of Rome

[Winter]

I'm simply suggesting that the loss of one of their richest provinces would seriously inhibit the Greek's ability to make war.

Also, it seems to me that attacking Greece proper would put us in a similar situation with limited reinforcements.

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

From Illyria it is still a weeks march to northern Greece, the Spartan kings would have a week to prepare. From Epirus we could be in the Peloponesse by that time, threatening Sparta herself. Also Epirus could be easily supported, as it is right across a small stretch of sea from Italia and could be easily maintained as it is surrounded by a wall of moutains, just like Gallia Cisalpina. Instead of conquering Illyria for the money right now, I would suggest going for the strategic value now and conquer economically valuable provinces when we are actually winning this war.

[Caesar Rex]

If the consuls push forward and take out ten or so of their weakest link it would cause much more panic among the greek nation than one coastal province.
Their mainland is empty.
The cities they have conquered north are far from reinforcements.
These are the ones we must attack and leave decimated...

Servius Labienus 'the younger' (32)
Senator of Rome

[Winter]

From Illyria it is still a weeks march to northern Greece, the Spartan kings would have a week to prepare. From Epirus we could be in the Peloponesse by that time, threatening Sparta herself. Also Epirus could be easily supported, as it is right across a small stretch of sea from Italia and could be easily maintained as it is surrounded by a wall of moutains, just like Gallia Cisalpina. Instead of conquering Illyria for the money right now, I would suggest going for the strategic value now and conquer economically valuable provinces when we are actually winning this war.

Illyria would be a strategically important province for the above reasons, and a much bigger hit to the Greeks than tiny Epirus. Also, we have to decide where we want this war to go. Illyria is a good choice because it will help to force the Greeks to end this war. However, attacking Epirus will drag us into a protracted, deadly struggle, with the only possible end being the destruction and occupation of Imperial Greece.

If the consuls push forward and take out ten or so of their weakest link it would cause much more panic among the greek nation than one coastal province.
Their mainland is empty.
The cities they have conquered north are far from reinforcements.
These are the ones we must attack and leave decimated...

Right now we are but one of the concerns to the Greek empire, which has armies around the world. However, should we threaten their sacred capital, I promise you there will be no end to this war but one of our nation's destruction.

Also, I would be very interested in this intelligence about Greece being empty that you seem to be withholding from us.

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

Let us wait on what our consuls think the best strategy. They fight on the front lines every day, they must know the state Greece is in.

[Caesar Rex]

We want no land of theirs.
We could liberate the towns between Sparta and Athens.
Give them back to the free people of Greece.
Let them fight off the tyranny.
Then you will see the greeks withdraw from our borders.
Please senators.
See reason here.

Servius Labienus 'the younger' (32)
Senator of Rome

[Winter]

Let us wait on what our consuls think the best strategy. They fight on the front lines every day, they must know the state Greece is in.

While the Consuls may know what the front lines are like, many of us have fought in wars before and can offer advice. Also, since the Consuls are subservient to the Senate, they really should provide us with their strategies.

Senator Labenius, you wish us to engage Roman troops to free Greek citizens, many of whom have been citizens of their empire for a hundred years, because you think they will thank us? That is your pretense for an invasion of Greece? Please, tell me I am mistaken...

[Gaius Julius Civilis]

Senators, senators! Settle down, I have sent the consuls a request for clarification, so we can discuss an actual strategic proposal instead of merely speculating about our own ideas and strategies.

[Pontifex Maximus]

"Lucius is right, we have to take the fight to the Greeks to make them weary of war. Besides, why should our people have to suffer any more than they already have?"

[apple]

We should liberate Epirus and Illyria and make those regions our base for the operation. Then when we have this base would it be much easier to send in troops to the main land.

[Caesar Rex]

Senators of Rome.
I offer you what information we have.
Much of it comes from turncoats in the greek army and tortured slaves.
We have also successfully landed two trustworthy spies in the greek mainland.
First our western border.
Over twelve thousand greeks have gathered there.
If you think we should withdraw and offer flowers to them please say so.



I would rather offer them the tip of my gladius.
Secondly I give you what information we have of the mainland.



There is only one main road into this area as I am sure all of you know.
They feel secure in the fact that we would not dare think of attacking their capital.
Well if we move swiftly after deterring their forces in the west and north, we could liberate at least four of the six towns.
At that point we will split the forces and one of us will secure the north from these tyrants and the other would head south to attack the mainland.
Marcus Lucretius, I trust that you will know what to do with this information.
Anywhere else would be a lost cause.

[Lisa]

If you should ask me I would say theres too much debating going on & too much time being wasted, lets take it all in the name of Rome!

[Winter]

ooc: I wish you would just post normal pictures, Caesar. It's hard to see the troop levels in those cities!

[Caesar Rex]

For those that require more than just my word.
I had to zoom out to get the whole area in.
As for the top picture - they are all full stacks - should be in the estimate of 12000+

[Winter]

ooc: Its not that I don't trust you, I just couldn't tell what was there!

Senator, you repeatedly speak of liberation with no mind to the actual logistics of the matter! Do you realize the manpower that would be required to hold that area against the armies of Greece? The loss of life an extended occupation would encur?

This would not be a simple annexation senator, no, this would be moving the frontlines deep into enemy territory! Do you know why the Greeks leave little forces in these cities? Because they know the sheer folly it would be to attack them!

Senators, moving on Greece is foolhardy at best. We must concentrate on reachable goals, such as detaching Illyria from Greece. Greece proper is un-reinforcable except by massive invasion, Illyria can be reinforce overland or by sea. We must see the logic here senators!