Pikemen Overpowered...sort of

[Jingles]

I've never actually had much of a problem with RS's pikemen, I think for example that it is quite realistic the way you can break them from the front with many units, as they could in real life, but I started a sarmatian campaign recently and when It came to fighting the macedonians, I've been starting to panic. This is because of a Getae campaign I played some time ago, in which I had an army made up of HAs and scythian nobles butchered by macedonian levy pikemen.

Once my HAs ran out of ammunition, I had to take down the pikemen in melee. 'Piece of Cake' I thought, as my time before playing RS, on RTR had taught me that a swift charge up the pikemen's backsides with my heavy cavalrymen (in this case my precious nobles) would sent them fleeing for their lives.

As soon as I made my first pincer movement on the pikemen and hit them hard with a charge behind them, I saw not a single pikeman die, and my horses were magically dropping like flies. The pikemen then about-faced, totally un-phased by the previous event and skewered all my remaining nobles like kebabs! After that I had my entire horde of cavalry withdraw from the battlefield, because I knew for sure that all was well and truly lost.

My question: Why are pikemen on RS totally invincible to cavalry charges to their rear while they are in phalanx formation?

[bohema]

wow that dose seem wrong

[Kahnovitch]

Excellent point JB. I noticed the same in my Parthian campaign. Hitting them in the rear even with cataphracts hardly makes a dent.

[Bebbe]

If you run out of arrows , you should retreat. Fight another battle with all new arrows

[Jingles]

If you run out of arrows , you should retreat. Fight another battle with all new arrows

That's what I usually do, but its a bugger when my army has no movement points left, so they just get decimated because I HAVE to fight them...

[Bebbe]

Planning. You should make sure that you don't use up more than half of your movement points if you expect a battle comming up.
I shouldn't talk, I never do that .

[Gotthard]

Part of the problem is how EFFECTIVE those rear charges are. Couple things to consider~

1. If the phalanx is moving forward when you hit it in the rear, you lose a LOT of the power. With cavalry with weak charges, this can result in little effect.

2. If you don't break their lines, they will keep using pikes. And they will kill you unless they break. Which, again, is unlikely if you don't break their lines.

3. Ironically enough, LARGE units break more easily than SMALL ones. This is because it's damn near impossible to squeeze enough men fighting a small unit to where they panic. What this means is you need to increase the area your charge will hit.

4. A frontal and rear charge together are better than holding them in place and hitting them from behind. While the frontal unit will be decimated, the force will still push your units into their lines, forcing them to break ranks a little. When the back charge hits 1-2 seconds later, they have a MUCH easier time breaking in.

5. DO NOT MELEE PIKEMAN WHILE THEY HAVE PIKES OUT. You will die a horrible, horrible, death. Retreat and charge again, over and over. If the pikeman get down to 'exhausted' they'll almost certainly break. With all your units, you should be able to rest some up, while he continues to chase you.

To avoid this problem all-together, make sure to fire ONLY into their backs. This will save you TONS of arrows.

[Jingles]

Very good tips there, especially the last one. My real problem is when my cavalry magically die when they hit the back of a phalanx though. They charge, hit, and a third of them are flung 30ft or so off their horses as if they had hit the front.

[Sandrus Castus]

I even have had a general who got killed in a charge in the rear of a phalanx-unit. Perfectly safe I was thinking.
Damn, then I used words I should'nt use.

[century x]

Jingle your just going to have to surround them. Since most of your Army is Horse Archers. Put like 5 to 6 units in the front of the enemy pikes to distract them(Have that retreat button on so they won't get hurt). Then get the rest of your army and just pick them off from behind.

It is a sure victory. MOST OF THE TIME

[Kahnovitch]

Jingle your just going to have to surround them. Since most of your Army is Horse Archers. Put like 5 to 6 units in the front of the enemy pikes to distract them(Have that retreat button on so they won't get hurt). Then get the rest of your army and just pick them off from behind.

It is a sure victory. MOST OF THE TIME

Spot on advice there. I steam-rollered over the Seleucids doing this.
Distract them with one hand, hit them with the other.

[century x]

Spot on advice there. I steam-rollered over the Seleucids doing this.
Distract them with one hand, hit them with the other.

Yea A while ago I made a thread on how to win with horse archers armies. I made pictures on how to do it and all. Can't find the link for it right now sadly.

[SMoVader]

I mainly play as the romans and have no real difficulty charging cavalry into a phalanx's rear >.<

[Jingles]

I guess the main problem has been that the Scythian nobles are actually quite bad as far as cavalry go, and that the pikemen always manage to turn their pikes around super quick.

[Gotthard]

I do see your points, I was pretty bitter about it myself. The engine can be sort of finicky, and the fact of the matter is, there's no 'wait time' animation for when the move their pikes. You should lose 4-5 if you hit them in the back, but this has to be THE EXACT REAR. If it's the side, your casualties will double easily. Basically, if you hit the rear, your charge damage is used against you, which isn't too bad. If you hit the sides, you get your own charge damage PLUS their damage, PLUS their spear bonus, PLUS any bonus_spear they have. Furthermore, they either get their DEF or SHIELD values, so you do even less damage, and take more. It's butchery. I realize it's finicky, but it does make the player be more careful.

Scythian nobles are actually pretty good, make sure you put them into close formation before charging however. Concentrated force is the key.

[Spartan 666]

i had that problem,and tried to solve it removing the mount effects in the phalangites units...with those,they have bonuses against cavalry even using swords...
now they are a little less invulnerable to cavalry charges from the rear...a little,but better than nothing. i don't think the problem is the weakness of the scythians...their cavalry is the best of the best...
but if you charge a unit with the basic horse archers,don't expect they to make great things

[Arnspac]

Lately I spread cav sort of N-S-E-W and get the phalanx to chase them. After a bit they seem to get confused, and with pikes up I slam them and withdraw until they chase that unit, then send in another.
If this is early in your game they may be very experienced units and far tougher.

[snuggans]

i suggest perhaps a general mass increase of cavalry units, to better compensate for RS double digit defense and the like.
too many times have perfectly normal charges (i think after playing 1.0 of M2TW anyone gets trained the hard way into charging cavalry) done very little to units, mostly phalanx, flank or back. the jawdropping thing is that there is a lack of destruction at the moment of impact, instead i find my cavalry gaining kills when the melee begins, which should be vice versa.

[Taelok]

Still, Jingle has a valid point. A charge of heavy cavalry to the rear of a phalanx will cause massive casualities, regardless of who the soldiers are.

[Lucius Tiberius Vorenus]

As big a fan as I am of the Phalynx, there is something definitely screwey goin on with charging them with Cavalry from the rear...

It seems like there's some bug and the back line of troops have invisible sarissa's pointing backwards.

Some charges directly into the rear(perpendicular charge) I can lose up to 1/4 of my cavalry unit, which seems a bit steep. And that's charge... few seconds of melee, retreat cavalry, reset for another charge... most of those losses are in the initial "charge" which should see more of the enemy falling than my horses and riders...

What you expect to see is a large surge into the phalynx formation from the rear, instead you see dead horses and riders falling into a seemingly invisible concrete wall. Not one single phalynx troop can be facing backwards, yet somehow they're engaging in melee... ??

Granted it's not always that extreme, but it does happen that way quite often.

Just to note I try to only charge phalynx from the direct rear when they are already engaging my infantry from the front.

NOTE: I am playing the Alexander version with RS as Rome, which seems like Phalynx on roids... don't get me wrong though, I love to hate the Phalynx! Just would be nice to see more realistic effects when charging them from their direct rear.