Germany: Jews urge lawmakers to ban NPD

[wilpuri]

Germany: Jews urge lawmakers to ban NPD

Key Jewish group urges politicians to outlaw far-right National Democratic Party, calls for Germany to 'wake up.' However interior minister warns banning party 'not as easy' as some might think

Reuters Published: 04.16.08, 18:23 / Israel Jewish Scene

Germany's main Jewish lobby group has urged politicians considering a bid to ban the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) to "wake up" to the threat to German democracy.

The Central Council of Jews says the growing respectability of the NPD is fuelling right-wing radicalism more than 60 years after World War Two and the Holocaust.

"Politicians must wake up at last," Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of the council, told Reuters.

"We need a signal to make clear the NPD is trying to destroy Germany and its democratic principles."

Germany's Office for the Protection of the Constitution says the NPD is racist, anti-Semitic and revisionist and that its statements prove its inspiration comes from the Nazis.

The NPD has about 7,000 members and has seats in two regional state parliaments, both in the former communist East.

NPD officials have praised Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for saying Israel should be wiped off the map. Last year NPD leader Udo Voigt said Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess, who died in 1987, should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

At a three-day meeting in Bad Saarow, starting on Wednesday, Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and ministers from Germany's 16 states will discuss a possible second attempt to outlaw the NPD after a first bid failed in 2003.

The Social Democrats (SPD), who share power with Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU), have been pushing for a ban, but many CDU lawmakers say there is insufficient proof of illegal activity.

"Banning the party is not as easy as the SPD thinks. The hurdles are very high," Schaeuble said this month.

Political funding
Last year, state ministers agreed to try to cut off funding for far-right organisations. As a legitimate political party, the NPD gets over $1.6 million in public funding per year.

The government has also boosted funding for education and social projects to tackle the roots of right-wing radicalism.

The previous attempt to ban the NPD failed as prosecution witnesses had worked as informants for intelligence agencies.

But advocates of a ban say the NPD's public statements prove it is hostile to democracy and give sufficient legal grounds.

The party has described the German constitution as a "diktat of the victorious Western powers".

In January, NPD General-Secretary Peter Marx said Germany should remain the land of Germans so future generations were not squeezed into reservations by immigration, as Native Americans have been.

Kramer argues the NPD is the "tip of the iceberg" of a right-wing movement including perpetrators of racist crimes.

"The fact that the NPD is a legal party that has been voted into parliaments gives legitimacy to its beliefs and respectability to its prejudices," said Kramer.

A series of racist and anti-Semitic crimes - including an attack on eight Indians that grabbed headlines around the world last year - have heightened worries about Germany's far right.

Latest figures show far-right crime rose 15 percent in 2006.

Opponents of a ban say it would not solve the underlying problem and that most young neo-Nazis are not in the NPD anyway.

The NPD says it is being treated unfairly, and is planning to protest in Bad Saarow against the attempt to ban it.

"The NPD is excluded from the media. Members are hounded and banned from hotels and their bank accounts are terminated. There is a consensus on the discriminatory treatment of the NPD," it said in a statement.

A case of destroy democracy in order to save democracy?

Source.

[boofhead]

The NPD has about 7,000 members and has seats in two regional state parliaments, both in the former communist East.

Sounds very small to me. I think that 60+ years of anti-NAZI propaganda should render them quite meaningless.

[Dromikaites]

A case of destroy democracy in order to save democracy?

I think the things are not so clear cut in real life so that we could easily qualify banning a Nazi party or punishing hate speech as "destroying democracy in order to save democracy".

Here is why: I fully agree that an idiot who goes and kills somebody because of being told so in a hate speech or because of attending a neo-Nazi rally is an idiot to begin with. Being an idiot is not dependent on the existence of hate speeches and neo-Nazi parties. Idiots were born, are born and will be born everywhere on the planet, with or without an ideology based on hatred at hand. In this respect banning neo-Nazis and hate speech might look like not addressing the root cause, the natural born idiocy.

In the same time idiots do idiotic things because they cannot think for themselves. Their hardware has no restrictions as to which software can be uploaded into it. Because an idiot has no ability to think straight he/she is easily programmed by anybody who takes the time to come up with a message appealing enough to his/her most beastly instincts.

So in order to prevent the malfunctioning of the already deficient hardware the society needs to be very careful what software gets on the market. The alternative to restricting the software would be restricting the hardware. In which case no society would be better than the Nazis who were gasing the mentally and physically deficient.

[wilpuri]

I think the things are not so clear cut in real life so we could qualify banning a Nazi party or punishing hate speech as "destroying democracy in order to save democracy".

Here is why: I fully agree that an idiot who goes and kills somebody because of being told so in a hate speech or because of attending a neo-Nazi rally is an idiot to begin with. Being an idiot is not dependent on the existence of hate speeches and neo-Nazi parties. Idiots were born, are born and will be born everywhere on the planet, with or without an ideology based on hatred at hand. In this respect banning neo-Nazis and hate speech might look like not addressing the root cause, the natural born idiocy.

In the same time idiots do idiotic things because they cannot think for themselves. Their hardware has no restrictions as to which software can be uploaded into it. Because an idiot has no ability to think straight he/she is easily programmed by anybody who takes the time to come up with a message appealing enough to his/her most beastly instincts.

So in order to prevent the malfunctioning of the already deficient hardware the society needs to be very careful what software gets on the market. The alternative to restricting the software would be restricting the hardware. In which case no society would be better than the Nazis who were gasing the mentally and physically deficient.

If the NPD was as you describe it here, it would have banned ages ago.

[Dromikaites]

If the NPD was as you describe it here, it would have banned ages ago.

Well, they did try but there's a thing in any functional democracy which says due process is required. Using witnesses who were informants of the German secret services apparently doesn't qualify as solid proof in a German court of law. It might sound funny to me (but I am a Nazi or a Commie "the end justifies the means" type of person when it comes to defending democracy ) but the judges need to be sure the information brought as proof is a genuine one and not something doctored by the secret services.

So those who want the NPD banned need to do their homework better. Hey, after all all those secret service agents are paid by the taxpayers to do a proper job. Back to work and don't cut corners this time!

[wilpuri]

Well, they did try but there's a thing in any functional democracy which says due process is required. Using witnesses who were informants of the German secret services apparently doesn't qualify as solid proof in a German court of law. It might sound funny to me (but I am a Nazi or a Commie "the end justifies the means" type of person when it comes to defending democracy ) but the judges need to be sure the information brought as proof is a genuine one and not something doctored by the secret services.

So those who want the NPD banned need to do their homework better. Hey, after all all those secret service agents are paid by the taxpayers to do a proper job. Back to work and don't cut corners this time!

It was not banned because it had been so thoroughly infiltrated by agents of the state and it was impossible to tell what was true NPD, what was government provocation.

[Dromikaites]

It was not banned because it had been so thoroughly infiltrated by agents of the state and it was impossible to tell what was true NPD, what was government provocation.

Which means sloppy work done by the agents of the Office for Protection of the Constitution (BfV) methinks. German quality standards don't always live up to their reputation

I'm not sure though what are you against? The quality of work of the BfV or the use of BfV and of the legal system in order to obtain the banning of a political party in general?

[boofhead]

So, everyone has the right to free expression, except those who annoy us too much? Or those you can successfully associate with movements of the past?

[Каие]

No. democracies don't ban political parties, or else the BNP and NF would have been gone time ago.

[antares24]

That party should not be banned, at least until they actually commit something unlawful to be prosecuted about. Plus every try to ban it would only put it in the spotlight, and probably help it to get new voters.
If germany have a problem of far right politically motivated incidents (it doesn't seem the case to me) it should try to solve the cause of them, banning a little party such as that wouldn't solve anything.

[Yorkshireman]

No. democracies don't ban political parties, or else the BNP and NF would have been gone time ago.

And presumably the Socialist Workers party, Communist party of GB, Workers Revolutionary party etc and all the other extreme left wing parties that people seem to forget when talking of banning political groups.

[Каие]

And presumably the Socialist Workers party, Communist party of GB, Workers Revolutionary party etc and all the other extreme left wing parties that people seem to forget when talking of banning political groups.

You're right about the revolutionary party etc. except unless the Marxists are very racist, engage in violence and crime and want to throw everyone out, i don't see why they should be banned, restricted perhaps.

[wilpuri]

No. democracies don't ban political parties, or else the BNP and NF would have been gone time ago.

So what about Belgium and Vlaams Blok?

[Каие]

So what about Belgium and Vlaams Blok?

As i said Democracies shouldn't ban parties, also religion shouldn't feature a role in democracy and i believe Belgium is chaired by the Christian Democrats?
So they are guilty on two accounts...

Can Germany let it's own conscience decide what is right to do, rather than have Jewish or Muslim lobbyists do it for them?

What jews and muslims aren't German now?
Do they not have the same classification and rights as the Aryans to voice their concerns and decide which directions their country should go in?

[Yorkshireman]

I think most countries find it counter productive anyway to ban all extremist groups, it makes more sense to keep them visible. That way it's asier to keep abreast of what their upto membership/members etc. Most of these parties on the far left and right are closely monitored and probably heavily infiltrated by the security services, not just in Germany but everywhere.

[Rapax]

What jews and muslims aren't German now?
Do they not have the same classification and rights as the Aryans to voice their concerns and decide which directions their country should go in?

:hmmm:
What Aryans? He was talking about jewish and muslim lobbyists, no word there about them not being german. The idea is that the government should make fair and unbiased decisions and not be swayed by the opinions of any lobbyist group.

[Каие]

:hmmm:
What Aryans? He was talking about jewish and muslim lobbyists, no word there about them not being german. The idea is that the government should make fair and unbiased decisions and not be swayed by the opinions of any lobbyist group.

Look at his response and judge for yourself.
below;

Now? They have never been...

What can i say...somethings never change in germany.

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

What jews and muslims aren't German now?

Now? They have never been...

[Kiljan Arslan]

Let those s talk.

[Blau&Gruen]

Democracies can certainly forbid groups which undermine the constitutional order. The right to resist exists in all free society. The question in this case is more, is it worth to claim this serious right because of a few hundred mental cripples who are already individually blacklisted.