Templars -- badly implemented ?

[gapper4]

First, gratz and thanks to the team for an overall superb mod. Impossible to ever play vanilla again after this However, I've become increasingly frustrated with how the Templars -- my fav faction -- play. I was hoping 6.0 would address this but it doesn't.

The bottom line is that, in spite of some pretty spiffy units and historically accurate names, the Templars still play like a regular royal faction, which is all wrong. There shouldn't be any marriages, "biological son" traits, no daughters, etc. It really destroys the immersion to see Templar birth announcements The Templars were a monastic order. Men -- and only men -- joined, gave all their worldly possessions, and dedicated their lives to the order. "Loyalty" should also not be a factor at all since order Grand Masters were chosen by election; to my knowledge, there was never anything resembling a "coup" within the order, or any serious leadership challenges during its entire 2 century history.

Would it possible, in future versions, to remedy this ? Don't we have the Teutonic Knights to pattern the Templars after ? The Templars are perhaps the coolest, most mystical organization to have existed during the Crusades and it doesn't go them justice to see them represented as just another squabbling royal family.

[Grunn]

making Templars ultra-loyal is a bit harder, but anyone with a basic idea of making traits could knock up a simple trait given to templar generals upon creation to raise loyalty if thats your cup of tea.

Opening up descr_sm_factions.txt and changing the "has_family_tree" line for the Templars from "yes" to "teutonic" should make them work as the Teutonic order.

Marriges are hardcoded though, and even with a Teutonic tree theres nothing to stop you marrying generals (though they should not have children).

Edit: hm the Teutons themselves dont have a teutonic tree in SS6.0, i'm assuming giving the Templars a teutonic tree still works, SS6.0 uses the kingdoms exe and all, i'm just wondering why the teutons dont have that type of tree, odd, i'l have to fire up a game with them later and look.

[silvine]

inded u r quite right

[Quark]

gapper4
Excluding Templars from certain traits I can do, but not sure about the no daughters rule as would have to ensure that the faction kept generating new members somehow. You could just allow them to recruit more generals from buildings, but the Ai is unlikely to handle that well.

:hmmm: Might also redo the education system a bit and create a knightly orders education system designed for Teutons and Templars only.

[gapper4]

gapper4
Excluding Templars from certain traits I can do, but not sure about the no daughters rule as would have to ensure that the faction kept generating new members somehow. You could just allow them to recruit more generals from buildings, but the Ai is unlikely to handle that well.

:hmmm: Might also redo the education system a bit and create a knightly orders education system designed for Teutons and Templars only.

Thanks for the replies, gents. Quark, I don't pretend to understand much about modding (I'm a bank desk jockey in real life. Don't hate me !) but would it be possible to simply increase the adoption rate and do away with marriages/births entirely ? How is it handled for the Teutonic Knights ?

Here's a list of changes that I think would really help create a more atmospheric Templar faction;

- no marriages or births. Increase in generals/administrators handled by either adoption or direct recruitment.

- loyalty is always at least high. Templar generals are impossible -- or at least extremely expensive -- to bribe. To spice things up, loyalty among generals could take a hit if the Faction Leader starts massacring prisoners

- Templars can't ally with Muslim factions.

- Reputation with the Pope is always at least high. Order can't get excommunicated because, well, when that happened in real life they were all put to death (in France at least) and that was the end of the Templars The Templars derived their entire legitimacy from their relationship with the Papacy. Once that's gone, the order essentially ceases to exist.

- Templars were not allowed to ransom themselves or run from battle. Therefore, Templar units should be not allowed to break in battle, and you shouldn't be able to ransom Templar prisoners.

I have no idea how difficult any of this is so apologies if I'm asking for the impossible. I'm just thinking that, since the good people who make SS took the time to include Templars, let's try to ensure that this very unique faction is, indeed, not simply another royal dynasty.

[Caesar Clivus]

- Templars were not allowed to ransom themselves or run from battle. Therefore, Templar units should be not allowed to break in battle,

This would make them overpowered.

..and you shouldn't be able to ransom Templar prisoners.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this is hardcoded, but a good question is what makes an AI faction decide to pay the ransom or refuse it?

[s0meguy]

- Reputation with the Pope is always at least high. Order can't get excommunicated because, well, when that happened in real life they were all put to death (in France at least) and that was the end of the Templars The Templars derived their entire legitimacy from their relationship with the Papacy. Once that's gone, the order essentially ceases to exist.

- Templars were not allowed to ransom themselves or run from battle. Therefore, Templar units should be not allowed to break in battle, and you shouldn't be able to ransom Templar prisoners.

The ransom thing is impossible, the run from battle is possible by setting their morale extremely high but that would give the templars a very unfair advantage if their units cannot be routed. Oh and the rule that templars can't break in battle doesn't mean that it doesn't happen in reality.

The Pope thing is probably possible to script but it would mean that they can just attack any christian country without getting excommunicated or their papal reputation lowered.

[gapper4]

The ransom thing is impossible, the run from battle is possible by setting their morale extremely high but that would give the templars a very unfair advantage if their units cannot be routed. Oh and the rule that templars can't break in battle doesn't mean that it doesn't happen in reality.

The Pope thing is probably possible to script but it would mean that they can just attack any christian country without getting excommunicated or their papal reputation lowered.

Yes, I understand the potential problems but there are possible solutions. The Templars were known to be extremely rich (that's why Philip the Handsome arranged to destroy them; he owed them money and coveted their treasure). Perhaps actual Templar troops would take longer to train, cost a lot, and come in small units, and Templars must therefore recruit lots of mercenaries who can be broken in battle, unlike the Templars themselves (Templars should get serious trade bonuses since they essentially invented banking and letters of credit. Also, their merchants should perhaps get some bonuses). Templars should be thought of essentially as Medieval Spartans. All they did all day was pray and train to fight. They had no purpose in life other than to worship God and protect pilgrims in the Holy Land by fighting heathens. Extremely high morale in battle is a given, as should be loyalty to their faction.

About attacking Catholic factions, yup, that's an issue but, again, it could be addressed by the simple expedient of requiring the Templars to have a higher standing with the Pope than the faction they're attacking in order to be allowed to attack at all. And there are plenty of Muslim and Orthodox factions in the ME to attack anyway

Again, I don't mean to critisize all the fantastic work the team has put into SS 6.0. It's just that the Templars were very very unique in a number of ways. Perhaps it's not possible to fulfill all my wishlist but I think that even some tweaks here and there would go a long way to distinguish them from regular factions.

[IceBeast]

making Templars ultra-loyal is a bit harder, but anyone with a basic idea of making traits could knock up a simple trait given to templar generals upon creation to raise loyalty if thats your cup of tea.

Opening up descr_sm_factions.txt and changing the "has_family_tree" line for the Templars from "yes" to "teutonic" should make them work as the Teutonic order.

Marriges are hardcoded though, and even with a Teutonic tree theres nothing to stop you marrying generals (though they should not have children).

Edit: hm the Teutons themselves dont have a teutonic tree in SS6.0, i'm assuming giving the Templars a teutonic tree still works, SS6.0 uses the kingdoms exe and all, i'm just wondering why the teutons dont have that type of tree, odd, i'l have to fire up a game with them later and look.

I believe the family trees were added for the Teutons and the Templars because of a bug where the factions couldn't be destroyed without one.

[Grunn]

I believe the family trees were added for the Teutons and the Templars because of a bug where the factions couldn't be destroyed without one.

Teutons do not have a family tree in SS6.0, but they dont have a "teutonic" family tree either, just struck me as odd that did

[republic_bohemia]

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[silvine]

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lol

[DenniZ]

interesting idea, never thought of it that way.

Wouldn't it be cool if generals or family members from the catholic nations turn Templar if they become fanatic enough about their beliefs? Make them turn to the Templars, like a priest becomes a heretic. That would rock!

[nodey]

Don't forget to add scottish outoftheirassfirethrowers.

Seriosly though. I see one valid point and it is that of the family tree.
The rest is a bit wishful thinking. Non routing units? I'm sure the templars too have had their fair share of run for your lives.

[DenniZ]

Non routing units? I'm sure the templars too have had their fair share of run for your lives.

HERETIC!!!!! BURN YOU WITCH!!!

[spanish_emperor]

i have an idea, though i doubt it would be possible but hear me out cause im an ideas man.
Would it be possible so that everytime someone constructs a guild for the templars (france, hre, england, etc) the templars would automatically get money to represent the power they had in other kingdoms? In real life the templars got paid to help out factons (Castile, France, etc). So wouldn't the construction of their guild in another faction's city/castle represent them being asked for help and the templars would automatically get money for that?

just an idea.
If it were also possible to give a specific amount of money to the templars for everytime another faction recruits them from their guild would be even better

[Quark]

You could create a counter for the number of templar guild buildings in the world, and increase the money of the faction based on this. However what I am seeing is alot of plus points and not many minus points to balance as this is meant to be one of the hardest factions to play.

Stopping the faction allying with islamic factions is doable, the adoption rate is not as it is hard coded to the number of charcters/settlements ratio.

What you really want is a militant orders Ai label, some unique buildings and traits, and an increase in costs of main units, perhaps with a unit pool limit.

[born2dive67]

Well if the templar faction is run by the AI then they already have the get money for guilds built going on, it is call a money script if the AI got more for those building it would unbalance them. but for the human player it would be interesting but in later stages it make them overpowered

thats just my opinion

[Sher Khan]

In the export_descr_unit.txt file, there is a line for each unit called stat_mental, like so:

stat_mental 11, impetuous, highly_trained


Add this ", lock_morale" to the end to get:

stat_mental 11, impetuous, highly_trained, lock_morale


There. Instant un-routable units. Their morale never changes. They will never break or run away. Ever. Enjoy.
Now just pray I don't lose my patience and break all your Templar fanboyism with harsh history and reality. But once I'm done with the longbow, sky's the limit I suppose.

[Naked Emperor]

Now just pray I don't lose my patience and break all your Templar fanboyism with harsh history and reality. But once I'm done with the longbow, sky's the limit I suppose.

Slap the silly fanboyism out of the longbow fan...now that's a wishful thinking