A pertinent example of everything that is wrong with UK politics (and the UK in general)

[Denny Crane!]

Labour Tax Revolt

Five more ministerial aides have joined protests at the abolition of the 10p tax rate.

The five junior government members have called on Gordon Brown to help 5.3 million low-paid workers who have lost out as a result of the changes.

On Thursday Mr Brown had to persuade ministerial aide Angela Smith not to quit over the issue.

The Treasury has denied reports the chancellor is preparing a climbdown over the abolition of the 10p tax band.

The Daily Telegraph reported Treasury officials were working on plans to compensate low-earning workers without children who are losing money, following the scrapping of the 10p rate.

Brown needs to raise money. How does he do it? He creates a tax to take even more money from the poorest members of society, not to mention taxing the items that they use to make their lives a little more pleasurable like alcohol or tobacco (don't really disagree with taxing tobacco mind I guess)

In response to mounting anger he says he will compensate them probably with tax credits. Let us ignore for a second the fact that some aren't eligible for tax credits and look at the ones who are. A lot don't know how to claim them, when people do the system is riven by mistakes of overpaying and facing huge bills to pay them back.

The government believes its perfectly acceptable to take money off you and create a huge beuracracy around giving you some of it back.

Where the hell is the British Republicans who believe in smaller government. There is an over riding concept in British Culture that public spending has to go up massively year on year, that we must spend more and expand government year on year and no one who proposes a cut in taxes can get in power because the blubbering middle classes think they might lose a small chunk of their ridiculous tax credits.

But a Treasury spokesman told the BBC there was no thought of "an imminent change to the policy".

He said the chancellor was aware of people's concerns and in future "would take them into account".

In other words he doesn't care about what people think because he was actually hoping the US trip would drown out this furoré and now he is stuck in the headlights. There is still some optomism though that this will all be forgotten in a month.

Mr Brown is said to be furious the tax row overshadowed his trip to the US.

He is understood to believe it has been exaggerated by the media and has urged Labour MPs to look at the government's overall tax changes, which he says have helped low-paid families.

'Poor people'

David Anderson, Jeff Ennis, Celia Barlow and David Kidney are parliamentary private secretaries (PPS) who have called for more help for those affected by the reforms on the 10p band.

Stephen Pound, PPS to Employment Minister Stephen Timms, has also expressed unease at the current situation.

He told Channel 4 News the issue had become "corrosive" and there was a "groundswell" of opinion about it.

No-one has threatened to resign over the issue.

Mr Ennis, aide to Cabinet Office minister Ed Miliband, told the Evening Standard: "The die is cast on the 10p rate but we have to listen to what people tell us and in future redress the balance."

Mr Anderson, aide to higher education minister Bill Rammell, told the Standard: "We should not be making poor people poorer and at the same time giving people extra money through inheritance tax."

It's rather extraordinary, he seems to have very little authority now

David Cameron on Gordon Brown


MP decides not to quit government
Analysis: Discipline problem?
Brown urges US-Europe links

But he said he would not threaten to resign over the issue.

Celia Barlow, aide to science minister Ian Pearson, said in a statement she was not planning to resign her position.

But she added: "I have, however, written to the prime minister and the Chancellor to express my concern over the effects that the abolition of the 10p tax rate will have on some of my constituents.

"I have also forwarded them copies of constituents' letters and e-mails that I have received detailing the effects of the abolition."

Mr Kidney, aide to junior transport minister Rosie Winterton, has also written to the prime minister about the abolition of the lowest tax band.

He said it was his job as a constituency MP to raise matters of concern with ministers.

'More tax'

They have joined a growing number of Labour backbenchers in expressing their anger at the changes, which came into effect this month.

Sheffield Attercliffe MP Clive Betts has written to Mr Brown urging him to reverse the changes - something consistently ruled out by Mr Brown.

Mr Betts told BBC News 24 people on low incomes without children had been left paying more tax.


Ms Smith said she had 'concerns' but would not resign


"That's something that we really feel unhappy about and we'd like the government to recognise that they have got that element wrong and take steps to put it right as quickly as possible."

MPs will debate the second reading of the Finance Bill on Monday.

But they will not get a chance to vote on the 10p tax issue until a week later, when ex-minister Frank Field plans to table an amendment calling for compensation for those affected, at the bill's committee stage.

Mr Field said he hoped the government would make the changes itself, rather than being forced to do so.

"We have never had a measure where we are being asked to vote for a package which makes five million of the poorest people worse off," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

On Thursday, Mr Brown called Angela Smith from the White House, after reports suggested she was considering resigning from the government.

Needy 'betrayed'

Ms Smith, PPS to Chief Secretary to the Treasury Yvette Cooper, said in a statement she had had "concerns" but had been reassured they were understood and "the government remains committed to its anti-poverty agenda".

The row has been seized by the opposition as a sign that Mr Brown is losing control of his own party.

Conservative leader David Cameron told Sky News: "It's rather extraordinary, he seems to have very little authority now, he's being held to ransom by members of his own front bench, threatening to resign and then he's having to break off from trips to the US to dissuade them."

And Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said: "Gordon Brown's government is starting to unravel before our eyes as Labour MPs see the full extent of the prime minister's betrayal of the most needy in our society."

Mr Brown decided, while still chancellor, to abolish the lowest, 10p rate of income tax and to reduce the basic rate from 22% to 20%.

He has defended the move saying: "I am satisfied that once people understand the scale of the good things that we have been able to do in reforming the tax system, that we are tackling poverty by increasing tax credits for the poorest, then whatever questions people have about these changes can be answered."

Sweet zombie Jesus I honestly can't get my head around how things work in this country.

[Big War Bird]

Classic, governments wants to tax more and give it right back! The brilliance of it, creating more dependency.

Hah, here's something else screwed up within the nanny state:

Innocent photographer or terrorist?

By Tom Geoghegan
BBC News Magazine


Misplaced fears about terror, privacy and child protection are preventing amateur photographers from enjoying their hobby, say campaigners.

Phil Smith thought ex-EastEnder Letitia Dean turning on the Christmas lights in Ipswich would make a good snap for his collection.

The 49-year-old started by firing off a few shots of the warm-up act on stage. But before the main attraction showed up, Mr Smith was challenged by a police officer who asked if he had a licence for the camera.

After explaining he didn't need one, he was taken down a side-street for a formal "stop and search", then asked to delete the photos and ordered not take any more. So he slunk home with his camera.

To be pulled out of a crowd is very daunting and I wasn't aware of my rights
Phil Smith

"People were still taking photos with mobile phones and pocket cameras, so maybe it was because mine looked like a professional camera with a flash on top," he says.

"I wasn't very pleased because I was taken through the crowd and through the barriers at the front and people were probably thinking 'I wonder what he was doing.'

"To be pulled out of a crowd is very daunting and I wasn't aware of my rights.

"It's a sad state of affairs today if an amateur photographer can't stand in the street taking photographs."

'Crazy' officials

But he's not the only snapper to fall foul of the authorities while innocently pursuing a hobby or working.

There's a general alarm about terrorism and about paedophiles, two heady cocktails
Austin Mitchell MP

Austin Mitchell MP has tabled a motion in the Commons that has drawn on cross-party support from 150 other MPs, calling on the Home Office and the police to educate officers about photographers' rights.

Mr Mitchell, himself a keen photographer, was challenged twice, once by a lock-keeper while photographing a barge on the Leeds to Liverpool canal and once on the beach at Cleethorpes.

"There's a general alarm about terrorism and about paedophiles, two heady cocktails, and police and PCSOs [police community support officers] and wardens and authorities generally seem to be worried about this."

Photographers have every right to take photos in a public place, he says, and it's crazy for officials to challenge them when there are so many security cameras around and so many people now have cameras on phones. But it's usually inexperienced officers responsible.

"If a decision is made to crack down on photographers, it should be made at the top. It's a general officiousness and a desire to interfere with people going about their legitimate business."

Furtive photos

Steve Carroll was another hapless victim of this growing suspicion. Police seized the film from his camera while he was out taking snaps in a Hull shopping centre. They later returned it but a police investigation found they had acted correctly because he appeared to be taking photographs covertly.

And photography enthusiast Adam Jones has started an online petition on the Downing Street website urging the prime minister to clarify the law. It has gained hundreds of supporters.

He says it has become increasingly difficult to take photos in public places because of terrorism fears.

Holidaymakers to some overseas destinations will be familiar with this sort of attitude - travel guides frequently caution readers that innocently posing for a snapshot outside a government building could lead to some stern questions from local law enforcers.

But in Britain this sort of attitude is new. So what is the law?

"If you are a normal person going about your business and you see something you want to take a picture of, then you are fine unless you're taking picture of something inherently private," says Hanna Basha, partner at solicitors Carter-Ruck. "But if it's the London Marathon or something, you're fine."

There are also restrictions around some public buildings, like those involved in national defence.

And under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000, police officers may randomly stop someone without reasonable suspicion, providing the area has been designated a likely target for an attack.

Child protection has been an issue for years, says Stewart Gibson of the Bureau of Freelance Photographers, but what's happened recently is a rather odd interpretation of privacy and heightened fears about terrorism.

"They [police, park wardens, security guards] seem to think you can't take pictures of people in public places. It's reached a point where everyone in the photographic world has become so concerned we're mounting campaigns and trying to publicise this."

It seems to be increasing, he says.

"There's a great deal of paranoia around but the police are on alert for anything that vaguely resembles terrorism. It's difficult because the more professional a photographer, paradoxically, the more likely they are to be stopped or questioned.

"If people were using photos for terrorism purposes they would be using the smallest camera possible."

Complaint

The National Union of Journalists has staged a demo to highlight how media photographers are wrongly challenged by police.

In May last year, Thames Valley Police overturned a caution issued to photographer Andy Handley of the MK News in Milton Keynes, after he took pictures at the scene of a road accident.

Guidelines agreed between senior police and the media were adopted by all forces in England and Wales last year. They state that police have no power to prevent the media taking photos.

They state that "once images are recorded, [the police] have no power to delete or confiscate them without a court order, even if [the police] think they contain damaging or useful evidence."


And in the case of Phil Smith, an official complaint about the Christmas lights incident helped sort matters out. Not only did he receive a written apology from Suffolk Police, but also a visit from an inspector, who explained that the officer, a special constable, had acted wrongly.

And there was one consolation for Mr Smith as he trudged home while lamenting the shots of Letitia Dean that never were - she didn't turn up anyway.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7351252.stm?fark

[Каие]

I like how people now decide to 'care' for the working classes, the working classes have been left totally abandoned and forgotten since Attlee.

When i stand up for the white working classes and the working class in general i get called a...wait for it...a Commie, or pinkoe.

New Labour = Conservatives with different mask, Liberals = have no clue. Which is why the WC is the BNP's home boys. Its quite sad, then again "Those who forget History are doomed to repeat it"

I want to know what happened to the Labour i remember. Brown? I don't think so, the guys who jumped on the bandwagon since 97'? Hell yes.

[Denny Crane!]

I like how people now decide to 'care' for the working classes, the working classes have been left totally abandoned and forgotten since Attlee.

When i stand up for the white working classes and the working class in general i get called a...wait for it...a Commie, or pinkoe.

New Labour = Conservatives with different mask, Liberals = have no clue. Which is why the WC is the BNP's home boys. Its quite sad, then again "Those who forget History are doomed to repeat it"

I want to know what happened to the Labour i remember and supported. Brown? I don't think so, the guys who jumped on the bandwagon since 97'? Hell yes.

Actually it is a labour idea to tax tax tax tax tax and more tax then to give it back in benefits creating a massive bearucracy around it.

Then again I don't like assigning labels or sides to ideas as it polarises debate, how about just agreeing that waste and beuaracracy is a bad idea. If you are going to take money only to give it back then don't take it in the first place and save a couple of billion pounds in administration.

[Big War Bird]

I like how people now decide to 'care' for the working classes, the working classes have been left totally abandoned and forgotten since Attlee.

How can you say that? From were I stand working class people in the UK are smothered with welfare.

[Каие]

How can you say that? From were I stand working class people in the UK are smothered with welfare.

But if you read th article are also heavily taxed, its returned to them after the bureaucracy it goes through and after some of it has been taken, its quite pointless really, they could just reduce welfare and decrease taxes. Everyone would be better off.


What i don;t understand is why they would do this before the May 1st Local elections. and also why would they do this in the same week they said they would give £50 bn to the banks. Sad day for Socialism.

[LoZz]

How can you say that? From were I stand working class people in the UK are smothered with welfare.

yes, but there is poor. then there is a line inbetween poor and middle class (they are still poor, but not poor enough to get welfare) and this tax is going to hit those the hardest.


are we not jumping the gun a little bit? the MP's still have yet to vote on this?

[Каие]

I agree i detest unnecessary bureaucracy.

[Denny Crane!]

I agree i detest unnecessary bureaucracy.

It seems to be the hallmark of New Labour. Their entire defence lies in tax credits or dependance as Big War Bird puts it. Ignoring all the people that can't claim it of course.

The ideas of the leading economists? Raise tax allowance from 4000 to 12000 and that is how you help poor people, stop taxing them altogether.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

bring back the 90% tax bracket,the working classes in Britain are ignored by the mainstream parties, its no surprise that they are turning to the BNP, they offer supposed solutions to their problems, and at least pay attention to them.

[Denny Crane!]

What was the 90% tax bracket?

[Problem Sleuth]

If they need money to help the poor out and for more government funding, here's an easy solution: tax the very wealthy more, instead of giving the poor less money in the end by taxing them and giving it back in a complicated bureacracy.

Also, question: who the hell voted this people in? That's one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. That's like trading someone a flawless, freshly minted dollar bill for a flawless, freshly minted freshly dollar bill. Except you both end up with 95 cents at the end instead.

[Denny Crane!]

If they need money to help the poor out and for more government funding, here's an easy solution: tax the very wealthy more, instead of giving the poor less money in the end by taxing them and giving it back in a complicated bureacracy.

Also, question: who the hell voted this people in? That's one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. That's like trading someone a flawless, freshly minted dollar bill for a flawless, freshly minted dollar bill.

Your not from the UK?

I don't believe we have a single party that wouldn't mindlessly expand beauracracy though some are worse than others like our present now 3 term ruling party. Unbelievable, no one votes against cuts in public spending in case it slightly effects them, not realising that year on year exponential public spending harms them more than anything.

[Problem Sleuth]

Your not from the UK?

I don't believe we have a single party that wouldn't mindlessly expand beauracracy though some are worse than others like our present now 3 term ruling party. Unbelievable, no one votes against cuts in public spending in case it slightly effects them, not realising that year on year exponential public spending harms them more than anything.

That sounds awful. I'm for a mixed economy, with plenty of Socialist elements... But there's a difference between "helping society" and "hole in your money pocket".

[Senno]

I have seen various departments of government spend their remaining budget at end of fiscal year in order to be able to justify the increase they were demanding in the next budget.

It's seemingly just a large turf battle, a zero sum game. And bureaucrats are the worlds best players at it.

[Denny Crane!]

That sounds awful. I'm for a mixed economy, with plenty of Socialist elements... But there's a difference between "helping society" and "hole in your money pocket".

That is the sum of UK politics.

I have seen various departments of government spend their remaining budget at end of fiscal year in order to be able to justify the increase they were demanding in the next budget.

It's seemingly just a large turf battle, a zero sum game. And bureaucrats are the worlds best players at it.

Yes this is exactly what happens and it is wholly depressing to know that money that could be spent enhancing your own life and existence is wasted needlessly in a cyclical political vacuum.

[Senno]

I wholly agree. Over here you might be a Republican. That is the classic battle.

[Denny Crane!]

I wholly agree. Over here you might be a Republican. That is the classic battle.

is it possible to have a relatively anti gun pro choice atheist as a republican?

[Senno]

absolutely. You arent a conservative, but would fit the mode of an old style liberal republican a bit.

Fiscally right, socially left. Electable on a republican ticket? Maybe not. Admired for sticking to your principles? Yes. Loved by all? No.

Forgive my gross generalization. But what is described can loosely fit in.

[Denny Crane!]

absolutely. You arent a conservative, but would fit the mode of an old style liberal republican a bit.

Fiscally right, socially left. Electable on a republican ticket? Maybe not. Admired for sticking to your principles? Yes. Loved by all? No.

Forgive my gross generalization. But what is described can loosely fit in.

Gross generalisations are somewhat necessary when dealing with trying to fit a person into such categories with broad belief bases.

As it happens and leaving myself open to ridicule, if I am given to understand the general feeling of the populace over there; I was very much a fan of what Ron Paul was touting, at least from what I read/watched of him. Similarly to anarcho-capatilism it is entirely possible that many of the ideas are impractical but they are certainly worth examination much like notions of 'flat tax' or 'fair tax' which some european states have enacted with success though the economies aren't comparable (phew run on sentence whoops).