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  1. #1
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    Default Discussion on the new Space Race

    Food for thought:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Both the U.S. and China have announced intentions of returning humans to the moon by 2020 at the earliest. And the two countries are already in the early stages of a new space race that appears to have some of the heat and skullduggery of the one between Washington and Moscow during the Cold War, when space was a proxy battleground for geopolitical dominance.
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    On Monday, the U.S. Department of Justice announced the indictment of a former Boeing engineer for passing sensitive information about the U.S. space program to the Chinese government. According to the indictment, Dongfan Chung, a 72-year-old California man who worked for Boeing until September 2006, gave China documents relating to military aircraft and rocket technology, as well as technical information about the U.S. Space Shuttle.
    U.S. officials say the Chung case is part of a pattern of escalating espionage by China. "We're seeing this on all fronts," says Dean Boyd, a spokesman for the Justice Department's National Security Division. Since October 2006, the Justice Department has prosecuted more than a dozen high-profile cases involving China, including industrial espionage and the illegal export of military technology. In an unrelated case also announced Monday, a Defense Department employee was arrested in Virginia for passing classified information about the sale of U.S. military technology to Taiwan to alleged Chinese agents.
    The scale of Chung's alleged espionage is startling. According to the Justice Department, Chung may have been providing trade secrets to Chinese aerospace companies and government agents since 1979, when he was an engineer at Rockwell International, a company acquired by Boeing in 1996. He worked for Boeing until his retirement in March 2003, and continued to work as a contractor for the company until September 2006. The indictment alleges that Chung gave China documents relating to the B-1 bomber and the Delta IV rocket, which is used to lift heavy payloads into space, as well as information on an advanced antenna array intended for the Space Shuttle.
    According to the indictment, Chinese officials gave Chung a shopping list of information to acquire for them. In one instance, Chung said that he would send documents through an official in China's San Francisco consulate. In another, a Chinese contact suggested he route information through a man named Chi Mak, a naturalized U.S. citizen who also worked as an engineer in California and who was convicted last year of attempting to provide China with information on an advanced naval propulsion system.
    The indictment charges that Chung was a willing participant. "Having been a Chinese compatriot for over 30 years and being proud of the achievements by the people's efforts for the motherland, I am regretful for not contributing anything," Chung allegedly wrote in an undated letter to one of his mainland contacts. (Chung's lawyer has maintained his client's innocence.)
    China's manned space program, codenamed Project 921, is indeed a matter of considerable national pride for a country that sees space exploration as confirmation of superpower status. China is pouring substantial resources into space research, according to Dean Cheng, an Asian affairs specialist at the U.S.-based Center for Naval Analysis. With a budget estimated at up to $2 billion a year, China's space program is roughly comparable to Japan's. Later this year, China plans to launch its third manned space mission — a prelude to a possible lunar foray by 2024. With President George W. Bush vowing to return American astronauts to the moon by 2020, some competition is perhaps inevitable.
    China's space program lags far behind that of the U.S., of course. "They're basically recreating the Apollo missions 50 years on," says Joan Johnson-Freese, chair of the National Security Studies Department at the U.S. Naval War College and an expert on China's space development. "It's a tortoise-and-hare race. They're happy plodding along slowly and creating this perception of a space race."
    But there may be more at stake than national honor. Some analysts say that China's attempts to access American space technology are less about boosting its space program than upgrading its military. China is already focusing on space as a potential battlefield. A recent Pentagon estimate of China's military capabilities said that China is investing heavily in anti-satellite weaponry. In January 2007, China demonstrated that it was able to destroy orbiting satellites when it brought down one of its own weather satellites with a missile.
    China clearly recognizes the significance of this capability. In 2005, a Chinese military officer wrote in the book Joint Space War Campaigns, put out by the National Defense University, that a "shock and awe strike" on satellites "will shake the structure of the opponent's operations system of organization and will create huge psychological impact on the opponent's policymakers." Such a strike could hypothetically allow China to counterbalance technologically superior U.S. forces, which rely heavily on satellites for battlefield data. China is still decades away from challenging the U.S. in space. But U.S. officials worry espionage may be bringing China a little closer to doing so here on Earth.


    Source: http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...712812,00.html

    any thoughts on the current space race occurring?
    it's worth noting that China's space program is quite ambitious; sending moon probes and fabricating a new space station etc.
    i suppose they're eyeing the moon's rich minerals.

    It's also worth not8ing that the americans arent exactly peaceniks when it comes to space anywayz; this dated 2005:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    President George Bush is expected to issue a directive in the next few weeks giving the US air force a green light for the development of space weapons, potentially triggering a new global arms race, it was reported yesterday.
    The new weapons being studied range from hunter-killer satellites to orbiting weapons using lasers, radio waves, or even dense metal tubes dropped from space by a weapon known as "Rods from God" on ground targets.
    The national security directive on space has been sought by the air force since last year. The New York Times yesterday quoted a senior administration official as saying a decision is expected within weeks. Neither the air force nor the White House returned calls seeking comment.
    The directive will replace a 1996 directive signed by Bill Clinton which was vaguely worded but which emphasised the peaceful use of space, in line with almost unanimous global opinion. Plans for potential space weapons were vetoed by the Clinton White House.
    Space warfare experts said they expected the Bush administration directive to be similarly vague but also to signal a shift in attitude towards exploring ways of affirming US dominance in space militarily.
    "Up to now, this has been a campaign by the air force to have the freedom to do what they want to do in space," said Theresa Hitchens, vice-president of the Centre for Defence Information. "This will, for the first time in US history, will give them the go-ahead."
    Ms Hitchens argued the directive would trigger an arms race in space. "Let's think of a world where US has 'death stars' everywhere in space that are going over countries every 10 minutes. Do you think other countries are going to accept that?" she said.
    The new push to develop space weapons comes as the earth-based missile defence system, intended to hit an incoming missile with another missile and which was heavily promoted by the Bush administration, has been set back by technical problems and failed tests. The air force's intentions were spelt out last September by General Lance Lord, head of its space command, who said satellites had given US military power a decisive advantage with their spying, communications and targeting capacities. That advantage had to be maintained by "space superiority".
    "It can be our destiny if we work it hard and continue to aggressively follow that," he said.
    The potential weapons fall into two main categories as defined by a 2002 Pentagon planning document: "space control" or anti-satellite warfare, and "space force application" or attacking the ground from orbit. The air force claims that it can design military satellites that could protect US military and civilian satellites already in orbit. However, most space experts argue that the satellites are aimed at destroying other country's satellites.
    "Space force application" weapons include the global strike programme, which envisages a space plane armed with half a ton of munitions. The "Rods from God" scheme would aim tungsten, titanium or uranium cylinders at targets on the ground from a position in low earth orbit. By the time they hit the earth they would be travelling at around 7,500mph , with the impact of a small nuclear warhead.
    Another option would use mirrors to focus an intense laser beam onto terrestrial targets, referred to as a "death star" by its critics. But according to one estimate a space-based laser would cost $100m (around £55m) per target.
    "It's an enormously expensive way of hitting the ground," said Laura Grego, a space weapons expert at the Union of Concerned Scientists. She said the "space control" satellites were more likely to be deployed, but even they could trigger an arms race.
    "We're legitimising the idea of attacking other people's satellites and we have the most to lose. This technology is diffusing rapidly," Ms Grego said. "To be the masters of space you'd have to not allow anyone else to launch into space. But you can't blow up everyone's launch pads."


    Source:http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...oration.usnews

    i was under the impression that placing nukes etc in space like the SLAMS from a Tom Clancy game violate a certain international treaty...

    Food for thought: http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...trol/Space.asp

    Are we seeing a new space race between the USA and China and even the EU? India's space program while still functional is still behind those of the aforementioned 'space nations'. Time will tell of course...
    so what do u reckon of programs like the SDI?
    what do u reckon of this new age of space endeavours?

    Discuss
    Last edited by Exarch; April 17, 2008 at 07:15 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Discussion of the new Space Race

    The world needs a new space race. For some reason, America has completely destroyed NASA. Ever since Nixon left office NASA has done nothing new other then the International Space Station. So during the Carter, Reagan, Bush, and Bush presidencies no new large scale projects have been taken up. Maybe if China were to increase its space program the U.S. might do the same.

    Many economists agree that whichever country puts the first pick into lunar or martian soil will be very wealthy. A new space race would be more about mining operations and colonization of the moon and Mars then nationalism and weapon systems like the old one.

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    Default Re: Discussion of the new Space Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Icefrisco View Post
    The world needs a new space race. For some reason, America has completely destroyed NASA. Ever since Nixon left office NASA has done nothing new other then the International Space Station. So during the Carter, Reagan, Bush, and Bush presidencies no new large scale projects have been taken up. Maybe if China were to increase its space program the U.S. might do the same.
    well the space programs were horrendously expensive and nothing's changed today.
    nixon had more pressing issues, particularly social issues that required funding and after the lunar landings and space shuttles, the US had pretty much proved their superiority in space.
    i'd like to address the worrying trend toward weaponising space in violation of various NP treaties.


    Many economists agree that whichever country puts the first pick into lunar or martian soil will be very wealthy. A new space race would be more about mining operations and colonization of the moon and Mars then nationalism and weapon systems like the old one
    why do u suppose they'll be very wealthy?
    i mean yes, the propaganda will be immense, but wealth? the world'll have to have amajor minerla shortage for ay country to be wealthy
    btw isnt there a lunar treaty sayign no country can claim any part of the moon?

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    Default Re: Discussion of the new Space Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Icefrisco View Post
    Many economists agree that whichever country puts the first pick into lunar or martian soil will be very wealthy. A new space race would be more about mining operations and colonization of the moon and Mars then nationalism and weapon systems like the old one.
    Even if the moon was made of diamonds or gold the missions would all end up costing a load more than they make.

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    Default Re: Discussion of the new Space Race

    Real wealth from space 'mining' really wont come until we can get to the asteroid belt between Mars and Earth. It is predicted that there is huge resources of precious metals there are well as metals and elements we are running low on here on earth, like tungsten.

    As for the moon, the real big appeal, in my opinion, is that it is close and doable. What ever wealth can be gotten from it wont be immediate and at the moment the costs would out weigh the return.

    But i agree we need to be looking to space and a space supporting industry for the future. One reason is that it will create new high skill and low skill jobs. I believe the Apollo program emploted something like 400,000 people if you added up everyone from the scientists down the janitors in the factories producing the parts. My number is probably off, but it took a lot of people to build that equipment.
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    Default Re: Discussion of the new Space Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramashan View Post
    Real wealth from space 'mining' really wont come until we can get to the asteroid belt between Mars and Earth. It is predicted that there is huge resources of precious metals there are well as metals and elements we are running low on here on earth, like tungsten. .
    excellent point.
    altho one must consider conditions like space habitatation and health effects of weightlessness in humans for prolonged periods of time.
    furthermore, those minerals which we do mine must be sterilised lest there be any contagions about. we wouldnt want another pandemic from outer space.

    As for the moon, the real big appeal, in my opinion, is that it is close and doable. What ever wealth can be gotten from it wont be immediate and at the moment the costs would out weigh the return.
    consider the strategic value of the moon tho. what's to stop a superpower from placin a garrison or missile silos on the moon, given most superpowers' blatant disregard to treaties?

    But i agree we need to be looking to space and a space supporting industry for the future. One reason is that it will create new high skill and low skill jobs. I believe the Apollo program emploted something like 400,000 people if you added up everyone from the scientists down the janitors in the factories producing the parts. My number is probably off, but it took a lot of people to build that equipment
    yes it'll create more work, but such a thing can only happen during a boom cuz think of the $$ that'll hafta go into paying for all those ppl

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    Default Re: Discussion on the new Space Race

    consider the strategic value of the moon tho. what's to stop a superpower from placin a garrison or missile silos on the moon, given most superpowers' blatant disregard to treaties?
    Sure, if you see the moon from a military point of view. But if we can send a rocket ship to the moon with people, we sure as heck can send one with a bomb.

    yes it'll create more work, but such a thing can only happen during a boom cuz think of the $$ that'll hafta go into paying for all those ppl
    I dissagree. I work around some of the wealthiest people in the world. I think Terry Semel makes like over $100,000 a day. These people have money coming out of their ears and they want to invest it. If they can get a return for their money, they sure as heck will invest the start up funds. Just look at all the press Space Ship One got.
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    Default Re: Discussion on the new Space Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramashan View Post
    Sure, if you see the moon from a military point of view. But if we can send a rocket ship to the moon with people, we sure as heck can send one with a bomb .
    it's worth noting that outer space is intended to be weapons free:
    States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner
    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...r_Space_Treaty

    I dissagree. I work around some of the wealthiest people in the world. I think Terry Semel makes like over $100,000 a day. These people have money coming out of their ears and they want to invest it. If they can get a return for their money, they sure as heck will invest the start up funds. Just look at all the press Space Ship One got
    a space race implies a militaristic and strategic purpose, rather than a commercail one

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    Default Re: Discussion on the new Space Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch
    it's worth noting that outer space is intended to be weapons free
    I'm sorry to inform you on this but...Read these words:

    It wasn't, never has been, and never will be....

    It's been that way ever since Sputnik (which actually contributed to the development of ICBM technology FYI).

    70% of the stuff orbiting up there now is delegated for military use.

    As for the future guys, it's best to imagine stuff from some of the more realistic sci-fi movies that have gained fame for their less than idealistic notions of the future. Things like the drop ship scene in Aliens and such will for the most part all be in operation 2-3 decades from now.

    More importantly, there'll also be nifty little things like Solid State laser weaponry, stealth satellites, more advanced ABM technology, and long range sub-orbital hypersonic bombers with global strike capabilities like the gem shown below:



    I could go on, but I think i've made my point rather clearly. As it's been recognized as military dogma for decades now, "Space is the ultimate high ground..."

    Any efforts to restrict the inevitable parallels between the continued militarization of space and the development of space/aerospace technologies and infrastructure is simply an exercise in futility.

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    Default Re: Discussion on the new Space Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelius View Post
    I'm sorry to inform you on this but...Read these words:

    It wasn't, never has been, and never will be....

    It's been that way ever since Sputnik (which actually contributed to the development of ICBM technology FYI) .
    but...but...but...but...all those treaties forbidding WMDs to be put in space...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Discussion on the new Space Race

    I am all for it. If we focus on space rather than each other, we might begin to realize how pointless it is this constant internal bickering among us humans.
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    Default Re: Discussion on the new Space Race

    but...but...but...but...all those treaties forbidding WMDs to be put in space...
    Not worth the paper they were written on...


    As far as nukes on the moon, that wouldn't be an advantage to anyone. Since a nuke traveling from the moon to earth would take insanely longer amounts of time than a nuke from earth to earth - it would give us days to find a solution to stop it.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Discussion on the new Space Race

    I think when the aliens figure out we are just floating around weapons in space, they'll deem us a threat, and then proceed to blow up the White House ala Independence Day...
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
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    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

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