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  1. #1

    Default Carthage

    Just need to get concepts together for a couple of units here:

    1) Late Libyan spearmen - I'm planning on using Johnny Shumate's Lions of Carthage (below) as the inspiration for a late Carthage unit with scutum, chainmail, etc:

    2) The Poeni phalangites will use the elite phalangite model

    3) And keep the early libyphoenician spearmen

    4) We could possible use the Basilikon Peltastai as a Libyan assault infantry - same helmet as the two guys above - javelins, small round shield, xyphos sword

    5) Other units remain unchanged other than Dr H's reskin of the Numidians.

    Last edited by tone; April 17, 2008 at 11:24 AM.


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  2. #2

    Default Re: Carthage

    Any chance we can get those flaming javelin throwers for the Iberian AOR?



  3. #3

    Default Re: Carthage

    Maybe I can do a deal with Monkwarrior?
    Otherwise I'm sure we can get them working


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  4. #4

    Default Re: Carthage

    Could the late libyan skirmishers get a reskin and use the thureophoroi model?
    RIP Calvin, you won't be forgotten.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Carthage

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman_Man#3 View Post
    Could the late libyan skirmishers get a reskin and use the thureophoroi model?
    Yes they will - in fact we'll probably use the EB skin for them.


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  6. #6
    Mulattothrasher's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Carthage

    Whats the whole situation on the "early" and "late" names to some of the units?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Carthage

    If I only had a scanner. If these were saved on your HD you can zoom in much better. I did not resave these pics into a smaller kb size, so the quality of a zoomed pic stills intact.

    This is from a book called Cannae The experience of Battle in the Second Punic War by Gregory Daly. I highly recommend this book! If y'all can find it to buy or at a campus library as I did, its chock full of Roman and Carthaginian facts and info on the battle, and the overall situation to kick RS2 off with. Basically everything need to know about what troops he brought is mentioned, like weapons, nationalities, fighting styles, equipment, etc...

    1 African & Libyans

    2 African & Libyans


    3 African & Libyans at Cannae


    4 African & Libyans at Cannae, Liby-Phoenicians


    5 Numidians & eqiupment


    6 Moors, Gaetulians, Spaniards, Iberians


    7 Iberian oranization. Infantry equipment



    8 This one mentions the flaming javelins, falarica


    9 Cavalry, Celtiberians, Lusitanians, Gauls


    10 Celts & equipment


    11 Celtic Cavalry


    12 Ligurians & Skirmishers, Balerican Slingers


    13 Spearmen, nationality, equpiment


    14 Spearmen, nationality, equpiment


    15 Conclusion
    Last edited by Mulattothrasher; April 18, 2008 at 06:37 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Carthage

    Yes also those boys with the yellow helm with the cloth hanging on the sides.
    It appears to be their yellow hair, which is not.

    Roma Surrectum Greek/Spartan Researcher/Tester.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Carthage

    Nice! Any chance you could do brief summary, particularly about the Libyan / Libyphoenician spearmen?


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  10. #10

    Default Re: Carthage

    Maybe I can do a deal with Monkwarrior?
    You want me to ask him?



  11. #11
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    Default Re: Carthage

    No problem doing the summaries.

    Anyone know what units we are dealing with for Carthage? I've not seen a unit list anywhere :hmmm:

  12. #12

    Default Re: Carthage

    Slingers (balearic)
    Archers - may need to change the look of these
    Late libyan skirmishers: thureophoroi skin
    Elite African infantry (a skin on the Thorakitai)
    At the moment we have two phalangite units:
    Early Libyan / libyphoenician spearmen
    Poeni infantry
    we may need to change the early ones to a normal spear unit and remove the poeni elite infantry in favour of a non-phalangite unit e.g. the unit above (Johnny Shumate)
    Sacred band infantry
    Possibly an assault infantry unit - a skin of the Basilikon peltastai of Macedon
    Sacred band / Poeni cavalry
    Bodyguard cavalry


    Numidian skirmishers
    Numidian light cavalry
    Numidian auxiliary / medium infantry (unit with conical helmet)

    Celts - potentially a load of these
    Iberians - loads of these


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  13. #13
    Mulattothrasher's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Carthage

    Heres an attempt at a summary. The info is dense in some parts (the pages above are for clarification), so its kinda hard to be brief on some of the issues because if we go by the armies during the Cannae/RS2 timeframe, the Carthage/Iberian roster will be very different than what other mods offer because of RS2's later starting time period overall. Thats a good thing though!


    ***Keep in mind the caetra was a small round shield. Any Iberian with such shields could technically be a caetrati. Caetrati was not a specific warrior tribe, unit type, or something special. It was simply a named attached to any warrior with that small round shield. Same goes for scutarii, or any Iberian with a large scutum sized/style shield.


    Libyans:
    - They fought as swordsmen, not as Macedonian style phalanx. Why? They used looted Romans scutum and weapons after Trasimene and Trebia. A Macedonian phalanx would not use such a large shield in battle. Also, at Trebia, the Libyans were mentioned as charging downhill at the same time to attack the Romans at different points. Though not unheard of, it doesn't sound like typical phalangite actions.
    - Becasue Libyan troops had been fighting in Spain under the Barcids, its probable they adopted local fighting styles and equipment. Not surprising since the Romans are believed to have adopted the gladius and pilum from Spanish mercs under Carthage in the 1st Punic War. Their gear would have been large oval or oblong shields, short cut-and-thrust swords, and throwing spears. In other words, the Spanish soldier, and the Libyan, would have the same gear as Roman equipment, though maybe a grade lower in overall quality.
    - So basically, these guys could/should be swordsmen, use to having large shields, short swords, and possibly with pectorales (heavy version?) or linen corselets (light version?). Again, after defeating the Romans, they adopted the loot as their own, signifying they were not fighting in a Macedonian style phalanx. If they have spears, then its probably overhand hoplite style spears, not Macedonian style.


    Liby-Phoenicians
    - Theres not specific mention of them serving Hannibal on his campaign. Considering so many L-P cavalry were introduced to Spain at the start of the campaign, its reasonable to accept their presence in Hannibal's army.
    - Half Punic, half Libyan bloodlines is an over simplistic way to describe them. They could be people of Phoenician race living in the colonies, or native Libyans who adopted the Phoenician culture too (To reflect this, we can have two units. One can be a Phoenician settler unit which is expensive and recruitable in Carthage/Africa only, and a Libyan-Phoenician unit recruited there and in Spain/Gaul/everywhere else).
    - Theres no evidence that L-Ps ever served as infantry in Carthaginian armies, although many think some infantry could have existed. All mentions of L-P's are as cavalry. At Trebia, Poybius distinguishes between Numidian cavalry and a certain "bridled and steady" cavarly. How they were armed is uncertain, but it's likely they were of a Hellenistic style with a mail coat or plated curiass with lance and shield. Livy's reference to cavalry fighting up close suggest they also had javelins and swords (kopis for melee). A figurine found that is identified as a L-P shows a cavalryman bare headed with a Hellenistic muscle plate cuirass and carrying two light spears or javelins as well as a rounded shield with a rounded boss and raised rim.


    Numidians
    - Rode bareback, no bit or bridle,used a rope to control the horses. Lacked armor but wore light tunics fastened at the shoulder. Numidian cavalry usually used smalled round bossless, leather shield thats slighty convex with a narrow rim.
    - Fought in smaller groups such as Livy referring to turmae(30 man squads). Though not known if they fought with exactly 30 riders, its suggests a smaller, close knit group as opposed to swarms and hordes of tribal riders (In RS2 we should give them a smaller unit size)
    -A couple AOR unit opportunities are presented. The Numidians were split up between the Masaeslyi in the west and Massyli in the east, adjacent to Carthage's own territory.


    Moors
    - Light armed skirmishers used in Italy with Balearic skirmish and slinger troops. Armed with a round, bossless leather shield and may have carried sword for melee once the javelins were spent.


    Gaetulains
    - Lived south of the Numdians and Moors, onwards and to the south of the Atlas mountains. Cavalry lacked bridles, and possibly fought identical as the Numidians since Polybius does not make distinction between them and Numidians. Their presence in later Roman armies is something to go by.


    Spanish
    I figure we know enough on these guys, but...

    -Shields of the Spanish and Celts were similar in size and shape. Wore short tunic bordered in purple which was their national dress. These were scutari.
    - Iberians seem to not wear armor, having only white linen. Sinew caps were worn as helmet throughout Spain. Some simple and unadorned, others were hoods that covered the nape and with horsehair crest.
    - Very likely Hannibal's Spanish line infantry used javelins. The saunion or soliferreum was an all metal javelin with a barbed head and pointed butt. 2 meters long.
    - The falarica was 3 foot/2 meter, long spear. Dipped in pitch, set alight, etc...
    - Unlike Numidians, the Spaniard cavalry were not skirmishers as their style indicates. At Cannae, they collided with the Romans, some dismounting to fight on foot.
    They fought en masse, or in tight formations compared to the loose formation of their Numidian allies. Most were probably noblemen, certain this was true with the Celtic cavalry as both lived under warrior cultures. Like the infantry, they wore linen tunics with purple borders, and sinew caps. They normally carried a small round caetra type shield, two javelins with butt spikes, and a falcata-type sword. The falcata would have been perfectly adapted to slashing from above, compared to the gladius.
    - Some cavalry appear to have large oval or round shields and a single long thrusting spear and seemed to be true shock troops. Possibly these wore the scale curiasses depicted in Spanish art.


    Celtiberians
    - Diodorus says: Light shields like the Gauls, some carry circular wicker shields as large as an aspis. Swords are double edged and made of finely wrought iron.
    - Sinew greaves, bronze helmets (probably of the montefortino type) with crimson crests. They used falcata swords, but straight swords like the gladius hispanensis were more common.
    - The ones at Cannae must have been scutarii, rather than armed with round Greek style shields in order to blend in with the Iberian and Celtic line infantry.


    Lusitanians
    - Highly skilled, specialized skirmishers with a caetra style round shield and several javelins, notably the barbed saunion and either a falcata or gladius hispanensis. They often wore sinew helmets and linen cuirasses. Some wore mail shirts (A heavy unit?), but the sole reference to them has them paired with Celtiberians marauding across mountainous terrain. Most Lusitanians would have been lightly armed overall.
    - If there were Celtiberian or Lusitannian cavalry at Cannae, they'd have worn mail shirts in addition to javelins, slashing swords, and small round shields.


    Celts
    We already know plenty here, but...

    - Ploybius mentions Celts at Cannae as being naked. Livy mentions with pants. Boii and Insubres at Cannae, if wearing pants, would have had them tied at the ankles, as well as shoes. The sagum, or cloak, coul dhave been worn or discarded.
    - Nobility was mail wearing and mounted. Bronze montefortino being the most common helmet type, though more elaborate ones were used.


    Ligurians
    - Not mention under Hannibal in Italy, but in Spain under Hasdruabl in 218 B.C. and in the first line of infantry at Zama in 202 B.C.
    - Almost always fought on foot. Good at skirmishing and close quarter fighting. Wore long sleeved, round necked woolen tunics, possibly with cloaks, and leather shoes like the Celtic style. Shields were like Celtic shields, but with medium length swords. As many fought as skirmishers, then they'd have used the sword as a secondary weapon.


    Balearian slingers
    - Some had fire harden javelins (another unit type?), but most were slingers. At Trebia, Livy mentions them using javelins, but seems to use their nationality to cover for all skirmishers. They made slings if black tufted rush, hair, or sinew and were made for short, medium, and long range uses (We should be the first mod to offer different ranged slingers to recruit. Would be a great idea I think. Closer range, more damage, longer range less damage, etc...)
    - Unlike their Rhodian counterparts, they used stones, not lead shot. Many were larger and weight around a mina (436 grams). Some bullets found at Numantia had these mina stones as weighing the least of all thats found.
    - Unknown if they wore a shield. If so, they'd be round, small, and strapped to the arm.




    Skirmishers with javelins compared to Light spearmen with javelins

    - Polybius calls the overall light armed troops longchophoroi. He calls the skirmishers psiloi, or those longchoproi that strictly skirmish and use javelins then run away.
    - He uses the term euzodnoi to encompassed light troops, but also those a bit heavier armed/armored, like peltast type light troops, that can melee with a sword, several javelins, and have a shield
    - Many were Moors, though the Spanish were better at skirmishing
    -Spearmen were from all national groups. Used javelins plus stabbing their main stabbing spear, though Hannibal had clear divisions between javelin skirmishers that ran away and spearmen who threw javelins but were expected to melee too.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Carthage

    There's mention there too of Carthaginian citizens being armed with bronze helmets, iron breastplates, large circular white shields, spears and swords.


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  15. #15
    pseudocaesar's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Carthage

    Quote Originally Posted by tone View Post
    There's mention there too of Carthaginian citizens being armed with bronze helmets, iron breastplates, large circular white shields, spears and swords.
    Sacred Band basically, thats how they were equipped, and I also think they are the only citizen soldiers also.

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Carthage

    OK. So we then have to decide exactly how our Libyans will look..this book basically states a strong case for a sword equipped unit rather than only spears.....we have two available slots for unique Libyan units, plus we can use the Basilikon peltast model too.

    Shall we say then:

    1) one unit like Johnny Shumate's pic above with scutum, thracio-attic type helmet and spear / sword
    2) one unit with round shield and spear (but not pike) to depict earlier unit?
    3) Basilikon peltast unit - round shield, javelins and sword

    Then we have the thureophoroi to depict a Libyan skirmisher and the Thorakitai (if we decide to use that) for an elite African infantry with javs and spear.

    The we basically lose completely any phalangites

    Do the Iberians tie in OK with our unit proposals for them?


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  17. #17

    Default Re: Carthage

    Yes to all what you said Tone.

    Roma Surrectum Greek/Spartan Researcher/Tester.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Carthage

    Tone, let me make sure I have the overall plan here and get this right...


    1) one unit like Johnny Shumate's pic above with scutum, thracio-attic type helmet and spear / sword
    2) one unit with round shield and spear (but not pike) to depict earlier unit?
    3) Basilikon peltast unit - round shield, javelins and sword

    1) This unit will be the post Cannae, Trebia, Trasimene soldier, with chainmail, scutum, etc.. corect?
    2) This is the pre invasion Libyan, with the pectorales or just the common linen "armor?"
    3) The Basilikon peltast unit. Is this a 3rd, elite version of the Libyan soldier then, or something else? Just want to make sure i get the gist of this all


    Then we have the thureophoroi to depict a Libyan skirmisher and the Thorakitai (if we decide to use that) for an elite African infantry with javs and spear.
    I had mentioned that Polybius (I think) used the term euzodnoi to encompassed light troops that were armored/equipped enough to melee too. Maybe we can call the Libyan skirmisher a Libyan Euzodnoi. Players will wonder, "Whats a Libyan euzodnoi?" I think a different name will spice the unit roster names up a bit.





    Heres info from a book called The Punic Wars, by Nigel Bagnall. As the title implies, it does not solely focus on Punic War #2.

    -Balearic slingers were formed into units of 2,000 men with two kinds of slings. One was a short range sling, and the other a long range sling (reminds me of another book that mentioned which ever sling was not in use was possibly wrapped around their heads, like a headband. I do think RS2 should feature both a long range and short range version ) The slingers had a range of 600 feet.
    - Spanish infantry used short swords, effective weapons used by the romans themselves.
    - The largest group of mercenaries were the Libyans from Tunisia.Served as light skirmishers and in the massively concentrated infantry of the line.
    - The Sacred Band was raised in the 4th century B.C. and was an all Carthaginian force raised to fight as heavy infantry. The long term professional leadership of the army was chosen from their ranks (Does not mention their fighting style).


    Heres the Sacred band wiki
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Carthage

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Ok, wiki agrees with the whole 2-3,000 man strength as does Bagnall. Referencing the source, it appears that 3,000 native Carthaginians were at this battle, but the Carthaginian force was 10,000 strong due to 7,000 or so mercs marching with the Sacred Band. (Interestingly, this also mentions that Carthage used 4 horse chariots long ago).

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...imoleon*.html:


    while the regions below cleared up, the Crimesus came into view, and the enemy were seen crossing it, in the van their four-horse chariots formidably arrayed for battle, and behind these ten thousand men-at‑arms with white shields. 5 These the Corinthians conjectured to be Carthaginians, from the splendour of their armour and the slowness p327and good order of their march. 6 After these the other nations streamed on and were making the crossing in tumultuous confusion.

    After these the other nations streamed on and were making the crossing in tumultuous confusion. Then Timoleon, noticing that the river was putting it in their power to cut off and engage with whatever numbers of the enemy they themselves desired, and bidding the soldiers observe that the phalanx of the enemy was sundered by the river, since some of them had already crossed, while others were about to do so, ordered Demaretus to take the horsemen and fall upon the Carthaginians and throw their ranks into confusion before their array was yet formed. 7 Then he himself, descending into the plain, assigned the wings to the other Sicilian Greeks, uniting a few of his mercenaries with each wing, while he took the Syracusans and the best fighters among his mercenaries under his own command in the centre. 8 Then he waited a little while, watching what his horsemen would do, and when he saw that they were unable to come to close quarters with the Carthaginians on account of the chariots which coursed up and down in front of their lines, but were forced to wheel about continually that their ranks might not be broken, and to make their charges in quick succession after facing about again, 9 he took up his shield and shouted to his infantrymen to follow and be of good courage; and his voice seemed stronger than usual and more than human, whether it was from emotion that he made it so loud, in view of the struggle and the enthusiasm which it inspired, or whether, as most felt at the time, some deity joined in his utterance. 10 Then, his men re-echoing his shout, and begging him to lead them on without delay, he signalled to p329his horsemen to ride along outside and past the line of chariots and attack the enemy on the flank, while he himself made his vanguard lock their shields in close array, ordered the trumpet to sound the charge, and fell upon the Carthaginians.

    28 But these withstood his first onset sturdily, and owing to the iron breastplates and bronze helmets with which their persons were protected, and the great shields which they held in front of them, repelled the spear thrusts. 2 But when the struggle came to swords and the work required skill no less than strength, suddenly, from the hills, fearful peals of thunder crashed down, and vivid flashes of lightning darted forth with them. 3 Then the darkness hovering over the hills and mountain summits came down to the field of battle, mingled with rain, wind, and hail. It enveloped the Greeks from behind and smote their backs, but it smote the Barbarians in the face and dazzled their eyes, a tempest of rain and continuous flames dashing from the clouds. 4 In all this there was much that gave distress, and most of all to the inexperienced; and particularly, as it would seem, the peals of thunder worked harm, and the clatter of the armour smitten by the dashing rain and hail, which made it impossible to hear the commands of the leaders. 5 Besides, since the Carthaginians were not lightly equipped, but, as I have said, encased in armour, both the mud and the bosoms of their tunics filled with water impeded them, so that they were unwieldy and ineffective in their fighting, and easily upset by the Greeks, 6 and when they had once fallen it was impossible for them to rise again from p331the mud with their weapons. 7 For the Crimesus, having been already greatly swollen by the rains, was forced over its banks by those who were crossing it, and the adjacent plain, into which many glens and ravines opened from the hills, was filled with streams that hurried along no fixed channels, and in these the Carthaginians wallowed about and were hard beset. 8 Finally, the storm still assailing them, and the Greeks having overthrown their first rank of four hundred men, the main body was put to flight. 9 Many were overtaken in the plain and cut to pieces, and many the river dashed upon and carried away to destruction as they encountered those who were still trying to cross, but most of them the light-armed Greeks ran upon and despatched as they were making for the hills. 10 At any rate, it is said that among ten thousand dead bodies, three thousand were those of Carthaginiansa great affliction for the city. 11 For no others were superior to these in birth or wealth or reputation, nor is it recorded that so many native Carthaginians ever perished in a single battle before, but they used Libyans for the most part and Iberians and Numidians for their battles, and thus sustained their defeats at the cost of other nations.


    The above battle was 341 B.C. is wiki is correct on the date. The last time the Sacred Band is mention at all is 310 B.C. fighting in Africa. Thats basically 100 years between the last mention of the Sacred Band and when RS2 starts. I almost want to say we should/could leave them out totally, or make them so expen$ive and only recruitable in Carthage that nobody wants to use them anyway:hmmm: As much as I hate to think it, I do not believe the Sacred Band were even in existence by RS2's time frame. Sure, nobility and noble infantry/cavalry might have been, but not *the* Sacred Band. If we allow the Sacred Band into the game then, technically, we should allow the 4 horse chariots too :hmmm:

    Bagnall goes on to mention the Mac. phalanx style that Xanthippus the Spartan reformed the Carthaginian army into during the 1st Punic War. Sacrificing their previous mobility for the power of the Mac phalanx. However, it seems Carthage did not adhere strictly to this Mac phalanx into the 2nd Punic War. Thats where the confusion comes in as to what remained Greek and what did not. The other book does a good job arguing that Hannibal did not have a Mac style phalanx in Italy. If theres a pro Mac. phalanx argument I come across, I'll post it of course so we can discuss which was as historically correct as possible.




    Do the Iberians tie in OK with our unit proposals for them?
    They should, overall. The main differences between the native Iberians and those mercs in Hannibal's army seem to be very little. Hannibal did not overhaul their fighting style in any large degree because they were effective as they were.
    Last edited by Mulattothrasher; April 21, 2008 at 02:33 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Carthage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulattothrasher View Post
    Tone, let me make sure I have the overall plan here and get this right...

    1) This unit will be the post Cannae, Trebia, Trasimene soldier, with chainmail, scutum, etc.. corect?
    2) This is the pre invasion Libyan, with the pectorales or just the common linen "armor?"
    3) The Basilikon peltast unit. Is this a 3rd, elite version of the Libyan soldier then, or something else? Just want to make sure i get the gist of this all
    1) Yes - just like the front guy in Johnny Shumate's pic but maybe with the helmet of the left hand back guy.
    2) Yes, whichever armour seems appropriate
    3) Not sure what this guy should represent - I'm just thinking how to get the best use out of our models and have something that is reasonably historically accurate - that unit has a lot of the right armour / weaponry - maybe a more mobile assault unit?...crucial difference is that these guys lob javelins and draw swords


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  20. #20
    pseudocaesar's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Carthage

    Lose Phalangites? The sacred band should be a phalanx, the same formation as Macedonian, just with the shorter spears.

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