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  1. #1
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    Default Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Society partly to blame for child abuse, says Pope
    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23553306-2,00.html

    POPE Benedict XVI has berated US bishops for their poor handling of the child sex scandal that has rocked the Roman Catholic church, but also laid blame on the breakdown of values in US society.

    Pope Benedict told a gathering of bishops they had "sometimes very badly handled" the decades-old problem of pedophile priests.

    But he urged efforts "to address the sin of abuse within the wider context of sexual mores".

    "What does it mean to speak of child protection when pornography and violence can be viewed in so many homes through media widely available today?" the Pope said on the first full day of his US visit.

    Instead, he suggested as a remedy an urgent reassessment of "the values underpinning society".

    Describing clerics who sexually abuse children as "gravely immoral", the octogenarian Pope warned that the scourge of pedophilia "is found not only in your dioceses but in every sector of society".

    "It calls for a determined, collective response," he said, but did not outline any firm action that the Vatican intended to take to purge the church of pedophile priests.

    Instead, he had measured praise for the efforts made so far by the US church to heal the wounds left by the scandal.

    "Your efforts to heal and protect are bearing great fruit," he told the bishops.

    "If they are to achieve their full purpose, however, the programs you have adopted need to be placed in a wider context," the Pope said, urging church leaders to join with parents, teachers, and the media to protect children.

    "Children deserve to grow up with a healthy understanding of sexuality and its proper place in human relationships," he said in a speech delivered after evening prayer in the crypt of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

    "They should be spared the degrading manifestations and the crude manipulation of sexuality so prevalent today."

    The US church was plunged into the worst crisis in its 200-year history in 2002 when the Archbishop of Boston confessed he had protected a priest who had sexually abused young members of his church.

    After the scandal blew up, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops drafted a charter for the protection of children and has issued an annual report outlining progress made in implementing the plan.

    Last year, 689 new allegations of abuse were lodged, and the church paid out $US615 million ($655.09 million) to settle child sex abuse cases involving members of the clergy - 54 per cent more than the previous year - the annual progress report said.

    Victim support groups and activists accuse bishops of covering up for predator priests or, worse, of sexually molesting children themselves, and have called for firm action from the Vatican against all abusers.

    In his speech, the Pope did not outline any concrete steps that would be taken, but urged the bishops to give more guidance to priests, who "have experienced shame over what has occurred".
    Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Hot air pretty much. The catholic church as a organization is broken and has been for quite some time and I say that growing up from a hardcore catholic family

  3. #3
    Stuntdawg5's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    Hot air pretty much. The catholic church as a organization is broken and has been for quite some time and I say that growing up from a hardcore catholic family
    I wouldn't really say "broken". I mean Catholicism is still the largest Christian religion in the world and just recently lost the title of the largest religion in the world. So it's still a popular religion. And being a Catholic myself, I can say that people are still coming into the Catholic Church. We have a steady number entering our Church yearly. But that's off topic.

    Atleast the Pope tried to ratify the problem somewhat. I'm happy that he did that. Though your right, it partly is hot air. Saw a graph a little while back and its pathetic how many American Catholics don't go to church and don't believe in the Sacraments.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuntdawg5 View Post
    I wouldn't really say "broken". I mean Catholicism is still the largest Christian religion in the world and just recently lost the title of the largest religion in the world. So it's still a popular religion. And being a Catholic myself, I can say that people are still coming into the Catholic Church. We have a steady number entering our Church yearly. But that's off topic.

    Atleast the Pope tried to ratify the problem somewhat. I'm happy that he did that. Though your right, it partly is hot air. Saw a graph a little while back and its pathetic how many American Catholics don't go to church and don't believe in the Sacraments.
    Actually since 2007, Islam overtook Catholicism.








  5. #5

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    As if the Catholic Church hasn't apologized enough? Not to mention the money doled out to the affected families. The clergy that do this are dealt with any many times expelled. There was one in my area who was found guilty and eccommunicated. This is evidence enough for me that the church is dealing with it as best they can.

    Also, the Catholic church is FAR from broken 1.4 billion members is broken? Church attendance is high as far as I can tell as well.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by _Pontifex_ View Post
    As if the Catholic Church hasn't apologized enough? Not to mention the money doled out to the affected families. The clergy that do this are dealt with any many times expelled. There was one in my area who was found guilty and eccommunicated. This is evidence enough for me that the church is dealing with it as best they can.

    Also, the Catholic church is FAR from broken 1.4 billion members is broken? Church attendance is high as far as I can tell as well.
    I said as an organization, the people running the machinery so to speak. Apologies mean nothing since a) they are still paying out money to people b) no one can get a good enough look to see how far up this crap has gone. As a religion I have no problem with Catholic church.

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    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    I don't think thats what Danzig meant. He said as an organization it is broken. I think that he means, the structure of it is. People put less backing to what the Pope says than what they use to, the Pope has less effective control over his religion than he use to, attendance is down- etc. While it is popular, it is not as rigidly followed and adhered to as in the past, its structure somewhat out of whack. Could be wrong in what he meant, but uh, I agree with the above either way.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Finally the idiotic organisation which has plagued society for hundreds of years is starting to reveal itself as just a group of corrupt individuals.

    Let's just hope they were fascist communist kittens who were on their way to international fascist communist fair.

  9. #9
    NaptownKnight's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    I don't think thats what Danzig meant. He said as an organization it is broken. I think that he means, the structure of it is. People put less backing to what the Pope says than what they use to, the Pope has less effective control over his religion than he use to, attendance is down- etc. While it is popular, it is not as rigidly followed and adhered to as in the past, its structure somewhat out of whack. Could be wrong in what he meant, but uh, I agree with the above either way.
    I think it's a good thing that the church does not retain any of it's former power. Having a Pope in charge caused the Crusades.

    On topic, of course the Pope felt the need to take a shot at US society, but in actuality more pornography is looked at in other countries than here. Other countries might not have as many violent (and entertaining I might add ) TV shows and Movies, but all that stuff didn't make the priests go out and molest children. Who knows what caused them to do it, but if you think about the life of a priest, a catholic one at that, he isn't going to be watching as much violent media and pornography as the rest of us.

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    finneys13's Avatar *Insert Generic Title*
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    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by _Pontifex_ View Post
    As if the Catholic Church hasn't apologized enough? Not to mention the money doled out to the affected families. The clergy that do this are dealt with any many times expelled. There was one in my area who was found guilty and eccommunicated. This is evidence enough for me that the church is dealing with it as best they can.

    Also, the Catholic church is FAR from broken 1.4 billion members is broken? Church attendance is high as far as I can tell as well.
    About 10% in its heartland, Europe. So it is not doing so well.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by finneys13 View Post
    About 10% in its heartland, Europe. So it is not doing so well.
    Actually around 23%. But I barely see how this pertains to the topic. Catholocism is doing fine just as it has for the past two thousand years.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    oh well, what else he could say lol..."we had fun molesting kids??" na....he said and did the right thing to try to put this chapter behind.

    in the meantime, lawsuits probably will continue. His apology worths no $$$ for the victims.
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post
    oh well, what else he could say lol..."we had fun molesting kids??" na....he said and did the right thing to try to put this chapter behind.

    in the meantime, lawsuits probably will continue. His apology worths no $$$ for the victims.
    The church has paid out millions -probably billions- to the affected families..

    The $ is worth $.

    Did you think the church wasn't giving money to those families?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Well, religious participation in Europe is low for all religions. Except some more fanatical and small ones.


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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    He also said that he is ashamed by the events in question. Must have slipped through, though.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    What else he could say after plethora of priests caught?

    "Business as usual, carry on!"

    They have to do something and at least fake shame or face serious pr problems. Option of trying to protect the priests by moving them around has become impossible with all the attention RCC has gained with pedophile priests abroad.


    Everyone is warhero, genius and millionaire in Internet, so don't be surprised that I'm not impressed.

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Like an army (a priesthood is under many aspects exactly like it, as it has uniforms, hierarchy, and a purpose, though it is a non-mundane one or it is believed to be) the Church protects its members. There are acceptable and unacceptable degrees to this.

    This would also mean that it was preferrable for the Pope not to say he is ashamed? Or does it imply that he lies? I do not see any traceable evidence of the latter, nor would I agree with the former.

    Finally, it is interesting that his argument is fully logical. Whilst there are more accessible people than children for the average layman to abuse, a culture of objectualized sexuality is by no means unrelated to the problem.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    Like an army (a priesthood is under many aspects exactly like it, as it has uniforms, hierarchy, and a purpose, though it is a non-mundane one or it is believed to be) the Church protects its members. There are acceptable and unacceptable degrees to this.
    For person outside RCC there is no acceptable level of protection for criminal behaviour by priests. On secular world, catholic attempt to protect it's members from results of their actions is wholly unacceptable on every level.

    This would also mean that it was preferrable for the Pope not to say he is ashamed? Or does it imply that he lies? I do not see any traceable evidence of the latter, nor would I agree with the former.
    It means it does not matter if pope feels shame or not. He would in both cases say the exact same phrases because that is route which creates least damage on top of existing one.

    Finally, it is interesting that his argument is fully logical. Whilst there are more accessible people than children for the average layman to abuse, a culture of objectualized sexuality is by no means unrelated to the problem.
    It depends. Sex is natural part of life. It should be treated as one. Pope might be right, but considering what position church he represents has regarding sex we can easily come to conclusion he is not offering solutions but problems.

    For pope, proper place of sex is in marriage for purpose of reproduction. This is wholly idiotic concept. It is not applicable into real world. Sex is enjoyable practice which should not be attempted to repress. As said, it is natural. Let's treat it as one. As long as sexuality is based upon two concenting adults, there should be no problems in it. That is what should be what is given attention.

    Consent and adult (or more precisely, person of legal age and status).
    And of course knowledge on how to practice safe sex...

    You want watersports? Fine, find consenting adult and have fun. You like whipping? Find consenting adult. Don't like contraceptives? Find consenting adult who does not mind not using them.


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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    For person outside RCC there is no acceptable level of protection for criminal behaviour by priests. On secular world, catholic attempt to protect it's members from results of their actions is wholly unacceptable on every level.
    For a person outside the US army, and US citizenship, US pilots killing innocent civilians in an allied country is not acceptable as well. But for example I did consider a US plane killing Italians, and the pilots getting away with it, a price to pay for the help and ally the USA have been for my country when the USSR threatened us all.

    So when something has a function, sometimes it produces damage as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    It means it does not matter if pope feels shame or not. He would in both cases say the exact same phrases because that is route which creates least damage on top of existing one.
    Which has no importance either: the expression of shame is correct. Processes to intentions are a fallacy, however subtly expressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    It depends. Sex is natural part of life. It should be treated as one. Pope might be right, but considering what position church he represents has regarding sex we can easily come to conclusion he is not offering solutions but problems.
    Really? Continence (although not abstinence) is an excellent idea, in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    For pope, proper place of sex is in marriage for purpose of reproduction. This is wholly idiotic concept.
    I may not entirely concur, but yet I do not find it idiotic either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    It is not applicable into real world.
    Ideas are never fully applicable in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    Sex is enjoyable practice which should not be attempted to repress.
    False, not always doing what one likes is a good idea. More often than not, giving in to desires and drives is a bad one, infact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    As said, it is natural. Let's treat it as one. As long as sexuality is based upon two concenting adults, there should be no problems in it. That is what should be what is given attention.
    Natural, again, doesn't mean proper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    Consent and adult (or more precisely, person of legal age and status).
    And of course knowledge on how to practice safe sex...
    That would mean legalizing prostitution, and henceforth, sexual exploitment, and possibly, slavery. Consent can be forced, extorted, and counterfeited, and bureaucracies cannot forbid this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwaz View Post
    You want watersports? Fine, find consenting adult and have fun. You like whipping? Find consenting adult. Don't like contraceptives? Find consenting adult who does not mind not using them.
    You can find a consenting adult selling you deadly toxins, and a consenting adult renting you human beings. You can also find a consenting adult doing a lot of more subtly damaging activities.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    Ah no its nothing like that, religion is rather unique in that. If it WERE however a better example is Pope=President, Bishops=Generals, Priest=Officers, the people=Soldiers. Now how well would it play out if a % of those officer/priest however small ran around randomly shooting the soldiers/people in the head? My guess not too well. The church IS under an obligation to protest its members, I agree. The problem is its members are the people itself not the priest who are servants of god. The church has pretty much failed in this regard.
    Are you asking perfection in a human institution? Not that I personally wouldn't like it. It is just impossible. Most humans really are a bit too unconscious and lazy for perfection in groups of them, to be even imaginable.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    That of course is passing the buck. Religion's primary goal is to be a moral beacon so its duty is to help direct morals if it is unable to do that and instead being corrupted by the very thing its suppose to combat...what is the point?

    So sorry Pope sounds like you and your group of old, wrinkled men arent doing your job very well. We constantly hear from the old man about the evils that lurk in society. Hey pope how about focusing more on your own house first then lecture us.

    I suppose Id be alot more tolerant if the Church's first action when these things began to be uncovered was to hand the Priest over to law enforcement and actively support them facing justice instead they attempted to play musical priest by moving them around. Eventually it caught up with them and they had to fess up, in the end the Catholic church acted no differently then some large corporation by trying to hide it all...only difference being companies like Exxon Mobile dont insist Im going to hell.

    Gee you think my utter dislike for the Catholic church hierarchy is noticable? Guess its the mark of a true ex catholic showing.
    That is incorrect as well: religion and the Catholic Church are not the same thing. Religion, as an idea, is the beacon, the CC is an organization meant to pass the massage along to other human beings.

    Confusion between the two, mars your argument, and protestantism in general, in my opinion.
    Last edited by Ummon; April 17, 2008 at 04:43 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Pope apologies for priest scandal... sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    For a person outside the US army, and US citizenship, US pilots killing innocent civilians in an allied country is not acceptable as well. But for example I did consider a US plane killing Italians, and the pilots getting away with it, a price to pay for the help and ally the USA have been for my country when the USSR threatened us all.

    So when something has a function, sometimes it produces damage as well.
    Um its religion, its suppose to offer a path to God, to Christ, to the afterlife and spiritual well being....its not suppose to produce any damage its job is to prevent that damage and to heal it. Your comparison of the military to the church is a bit troubling

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