KOJ Knights too Unrealistic

[DarthDisco]

The last few campaigns I ran through were for KoJ and while I thoroughly enjoyed the idea of starting a campaign already completely encircled by the Ayyubids, I felt that the KoJ roster was a little too "Knight heavy" for it to be realistic.

We know from historical references (many of which have been posted on these forums before) that The Crusader States, and Western Medieval Armies in general, deployed Knights and Heavy cavalry in a proportion ranging from 1/10 to 1/5 of the total army numbers. As an example, Frederick Barbarossa, who amassed a then unheard of force of approximately 15,000 men, had only 3,000 knights.

By mid to late game in BC, Jerusalem has 5 unique Knights to choose from, not including the Poulain Lancers and Mounted Seargants that fill the medium and light cavalry roles respectively. What's more, by the time a player has a fully upgraded citadel he can construct all 5 of these unit simulateously, from pools that range from 1 unit for Knights of Jerusalem and Hospitalers, to 2 units for Knights of Outremer and Templars, to 3 for Latin Knights. These units also return to their pools after anywhere from 5 to 2 turns respectively.

All in all I feel that this gives KoJ players too much heavy cavalry to choose from and devalues the Knights as a powerful fighting force. Fortunately I do not believe this to be a difficult problem to fix. I would simply reduce all recruitment pools to a maximum of 1 for Knights, removing also the Templar and Hospitaler Knights from the King's Stable as they're being buildable from their own building should be sufficient. Furthermore I would increase the number of turns for pool respawn somewhat; to a minimum of 4 turns on Latin Knights and up to a maximum of 6 or 7 for Knights of Jerusalem.

Last but not least, in a related issue. I feel that the Knights of Outremer have been made de facto obsolete. Because they can only be built at a Earl's Stable, by the time they are available for training it is far more effective to immediately buy the King's Stable, spend the cost difference and purchase Knights of Jerusalem, which are far more durable, or Knights Templar, which have a much more powerful charge.

For this problem I suggest 3 possible solutions. The first is somewhat more drastic and would involve dropping the Knights of Outremer down to Fortress level. This however, would make Latin Knights similarly obsolete, so they in turn would need to be slightly nerfed to compensate. I had toyed with the idea of removing the Poulain Lancers and dropping the Latin Knights into that role. However the concept of a professional military cavalry force is important to the realism of KoJ and so keeping the Poulain Lancers was, I thought, important.

Two other possible ideas involve taking the Latin Knights out of the Stable completely. On the one had, they could be made into a purely mercenary unit, which would not be unrealistic considering that their very name implies they are not native to the Kingdom. The other idea would be to place the Latin Knights in the port, at Shipwright level. KoJ already recruits Genoese Crossbowmen from the port, and Latin Knights were most likely to arrive in the Levant by sea.

If all of these options appear unappealing to the development team, then I would simply ask that the Knights of Outremer be given something to set them apart from the Knights of Jerusalem and Templars. Perhaps the balance could be set out thusly: Templars have the most powerful charge, Knights of Jerusalem have the best Armour, Knights of Outremer are effective against armour and have the best melee damage.


Sorry for all the text.

DD

[Kip]

Well you can still deploy your knights in those ratios, the units just give you more variety and choices to pick from.

[HunterKiller]

thats a nice point, i think if we can choose 2 heavy knights for each settlement
we build a templar stable, hosbitaler stable, latin stable, or whatever is there as i never played with KOJ
we choose 2 of those 5, and we only recruit only 2 types of knights, u know what i mean?!

[Garbarsardar]

While the point of the OP is valid in terms of realism, the composition of the army (as many other game and role-playing elements)relies ultimately upon the player. That is why there is always a personalised system of "house rules" in lieu. The BC simply gives you the opportunity to construct an unrealistic army should you wish so.

Now should there be an imposed constraint there?

Well, I'm not sure. Personally I prefer to rely about my "game ethics" and have all options open. But if the team wishes to implement such ideas that is also perfectly fine for me...

[redz27m]

thats good.. but in the ''read me'' thing of bc it says ''very hard'' in difficulty level of factions, and im now playing KOJ and love them since crusades of kingdom xpansion, my first try of bc my economy is down for the most part because i choose to turtle around, and come to realize that if you turtle in KOJ your dead, so i blitz the ayyubids leaving them only quahira(sp?0 as their settlements, now If not for those knights it would have been appropriate to say ''very very difficult'' level since they dont have a good infatry so much more on archers and their crossbows the worst i have ever played(dont fire on seige:hmmm: )..

its a good idea though to trim down the cavalry, making them valuable in the process... but i think its the only thing that makes up the appeal to play KOJ when it seems BC is more into islamic factions(so many to chose from..) and made us crusaders surrounded by them plus i believed it goes through also to some factions(many cavalry units.. ghulams?jihad ghulams?) and they made their horse archers formidable now(or so they say it is... )

or try another faction, maybe you'll be surprise by how how too they have cavalry options(just then maybe..)

or did i really read your post correctly??
wait let me look at it again

[Ahiga]

Those are good points DarthDisco. I tired my brain out on the post regarding Templars, but we have to basically weigh a historical reality with creative and gameplay mechanics.

There were very few knights in armies of Outremer, those present were very well armored, and while vicious in melee the lack of horse barding meant they were extremely vulnerable to horse rachers. Problem there being even if in a square formation of spearmen and xbowmen, archers could still reach them. Nor could the AI take that into consideration.

Another problem is the debate on the nature of a knight's charge - Was it mental? Was it physical? Could it destroy even a well disciplined solid line of infantry, or could it only break a spread our force (The Hastings debate, I suppose).

But I agree that we have a sameness with the knights of the Crusaders, with their differences being very unnoticable. It may be worth it to re-invest an AP mace with the Outremer knights to grant them a greater quality than latin Knights. I'll read your post in full and reply to its specifics at a later point, but thanks for posting your thoughts.

[Ahiga]

The last few campaigns I ran through were for KoJ and while I thoroughly enjoyed the idea of starting a campaign already completely encircled by the Ayyubids, I felt that the KoJ roster was a little too "Knight heavy" for it to be realistic.

We know from historical references (many of which have been posted on these forums before) that The Crusader States, and Western Medieval Armies in general, deployed Knights and Heavy cavalry in a proportion ranging from 1/10 to 1/5 of the total army numbers. As an example, Frederick Barbarossa, who amassed a then unheard of force of approximately 15,000 men, had only 3,000 knights.

By mid to late game in BC, Jerusalem has 5 unique Knights to choose from, not including the Poulain Lancers and Mounted Seargants that fill the medium and light cavalry roles respectively. What's more, by the time a player has a fully upgraded citadel he can construct all 5 of these unit simulateously, from pools that range from 1 unit for Knights of Jerusalem and Hospitalers, to 2 units for Knights of Outremer and Templars, to 3 for Latin Knights. These units also return to their pools after anywhere from 5 to 2 turns respectively.

The limited nature but great power of the knights has been something I've contested over personally - I can't think of themselves as indestructible as some accounts place them because they only wore mail (Albeit apparently heavier or thicker than Muslim/Eastern mail), and such eastern powers had already dealt with far better armored Mamluks, Ghulams, or Cataphracts before. And then there's instances of them killing Knights so it comes across as more poetic than authentic, I guess. I haven't invested myself in the hard accounts, just the research.

All in all I feel that this gives KoJ players too much heavy cavalry to choose from and devalues the Knights as a powerful fighting force. Fortunately I do not believe this to be a difficult problem to fix. I would simply reduce all recruitment pools to a maximum of 1 for Knights, removing also the Templar and Hospitaler Knights from the King's Stable as they're being buildable from their own building should be sufficient. Furthermore I would increase the number of turns for pool respawn somewhat; to a minimum of 4 turns on Latin Knights and up to a maximum of 6 or 7 for Knights of Jerusalem.

Such would probably require an increase in quality, which isn't out of the question, but a tenuous line to toe - If we want the Knights to be very valuable but limited, we also don't want for the mod to begin depicting a "300 Knights" Situation. While outnumbered it was usually not severely, and I believe that Knights didn't use the same tactics they did against other Knights in Europe as they did in the Middle East.

Last but not least, in a related issue. I feel that the Knights of Outremer have been made de facto obsolete. Because they can only be built at a Earl's Stable, by the time they are available for training it is far more effective to immediately buy the King's Stable, spend the cost difference and purchase Knights of Jerusalem, which are far more durable, or Knights Templar, which have a much more powerful charge.

We are going to be taking a very unique approach to recruitment in 2.0, making it less vertical with tiers and more horizontal with lots of buildings. So instead of taking 4 tiers to get to Outremer Knights, it might just take 1 tier and a lot more money to get an Outremer Knight and less money and 1 tier for a Latin.

For this problem I suggest 3 possible solutions. The first is somewhat more drastic and would involve dropping the Knights of Outremer down to Fortress level. This however, would make Latin Knights similarly obsolete, so they in turn would need to be slightly nerfed to compensate. I had toyed with the idea of removing the Poulain Lancers and dropping the Latin Knights into that role. However the concept of a professional military cavalry force is important to the realism of KoJ and so keeping the Poulain Lancers was, I thought, important.

Two other possible ideas involve taking the Latin Knights out of the Stable completely. On the one had, they could be made into a purely mercenary unit, which would not be unrealistic considering that their very name implies they are not native to the Kingdom. The other idea would be to place the Latin Knights in the port, at Shipwright level. KoJ already recruits Genoese Crossbowmen from the port, and Latin Knights were most likely to arrive in the Levant by sea.

We're considering dropping the Poulain and having them simply be Auxilia to the Palestine region. In fact right now that's the plan. So your first example is an option. I'm not so sure about Latin Knights so early, but it's a possibility.

The other two are as well. Could work, we'll discuss them.

I mention the possibility of Outremer Knights getting back their maces and am more and more in agreement to that thought. It wouldn't unbalance things tremendously - They could simply get the same charge as a Latin Knight, but with an added bonus of greater discipline and Armor piercing maces.


Right now, speaking as an individual member of the team and not a consensus of the team, I like the idea of furthering the contrast between traditional heavy cavalry (An ok charge, but it's not their greatest strength) and Knightly cavalry (The charge is their main strength). If we were to make the Frankish Knights less available, we'd need to up their quality but avoid making it "300 Crusaders". My view would be if the Frankish Knight can't get a solid, strong charge in on their enemy before being forced into melee, the knight should lose against an equal quality Eastern foe. If the Knight gets a solid charge in on his enemy, he should win against an equal quality eastern foe.

[Beauchamp]

Speaking of knights, i don't know if this has been addressed, but when I took Kerak as the Ayyubids, the game keept generating Knights Templar for me.
Its not a bad glitch, even though they are near impossible to kill when they fight for the KOJ.

Regardless, I agree that the knights are far too powerful.

[DarthDisco]

We're considering dropping the Poulain and having them simply be Auxilia to the Palestine region. In fact right now that's the plan. So your first example is an option. I'm not so sure about Latin Knights so early, but it's a possibility.

The other two are as well. Could work, we'll discuss them.

I mention the possibility of Outremer Knights getting back their maces and am more and more in agreement to that thought. It wouldn't unbalance things tremendously - They could simply get the same charge as a Latin Knight, but with an added bonus of greater discipline and Armor piercing maces.


Right now, speaking as an individual member of the team and not a consensus of the team, I like the idea of furthering the contrast between traditional heavy cavalry (An ok charge, but it's not their greatest strength) and Knightly cavalry (The charge is their main strength). If we were to make the Frankish Knights less available, we'd need to up their quality but avoid making it "300 Crusaders". My view would be if the Frankish Knight can't get a solid, strong charge in on their enemy before being forced into melee, the knight should lose against an equal quality Eastern foe. If the Knight gets a solid charge in on his enemy, he should win against an equal quality eastern foe.

I absolutely love all of these ideas. Taking the Lancers and making them auxilia is a beautifully elegant solution. It is realistic in that professional soldiers in the Levant were quite typically hired on initially as mercenary forces. This opens up space for the other Faction Knights to spread out a little and become a bit more unique.

The charge vs melee concept is perfect and I think it represents the tactics of the time extremely well. While I preferred the idea of seeing Knights of Outremer use swords, I think the idea of giving them maces makes too much sense not to do.

My only remaining concern then is regarding dismounted Knights. I know this is another hotly debated topic but my view of it is slightly different then that already discussed. My only concern is the dismounted Latin and Outremer Knights. I think that, in following with their characters, Latin Knights should not be available dismounted and instead Knights of Outremer should be available in their place. As we know both from history and from the character description, Knights of Outremer were more likely than their European brothers to dismount and fight.

This raises a question as to whether, if the mounted Outremer's are getting maces, the dismounted ones should also get maces. I see two possible solutions here. The first, and simpler one, is to simply replace the Latin Knights with the Outremer Knights for dismounted fighting. Mounted Outremers will get maces for melee, dismounted Outremers will use swords instead (every Knight had a sword to use as a last resort, so dismounted Outremers can be seen as having lost both their mounts and maces.)

However, if the Poulain Lancers are being moved to Auxillia, then it follows that the Poulain men-at-arms will be moved also. In this case, we can simply add Dismounted Outremer Knights with maces and they will serve to replace the Poulain Men-at-Arms for close in armor piercing combat.

[Caelifer_1991]

Many nice ideas... I'd just like to say that, if you reduce the number of possible units to make it more realistic, it's not necessarily a bad thing (so long as it's not too extreme ^^), tbh i like realism in TW games and the more of a challenge the better Ofcourse there's also a need for game balance but reducing the possible numbers of high/ highest quality units for all factions (proportionally unless inapporopriate) shouldnt change that *too* much, although it'll of course change it to some extent; but tbh a little more emphasis on historical accuracy and a little less on lot's of *what will make interesting gameplay* would be nice, just a little ^^, since having some diversity in the difficulty of different factions is nice particularly if it's historically accurate(as im sure you understand already as is evident of the fact that there is already quite a nice level of variance in terms of difficulty). Also i find that if you lack something that's effective you value it more =]

P.S. the mod is awesome in either case

[republic_bohemia]

I agree on the Knights of KOJ are over powered and need to be tuned down and also there unit roster is too powerful I mean you have to understand that during the first crusade the first crusade was successful because professionalism and armor and of course wealth and support of the Pope ect.

Now I wish that the KOJ be more realistic with it's units as they have to many in there unit roster it's just ridiculous.

In my opinion the desert affect needs to be tuned up so the crusaders have harder time in the desert and also need less units in there unit roster.

Think of it;the unit roster of KOJ be tuned down and the unit space could be used for other factions that need the unit space ect.

Regards.John

PS.Love the mod and all but there still need to be improvements made.Small things matter-Gandhi.

[Cromagnon2]

Hi great mod. I also started a campaign as the KoJ for the test.

I dont think their unit rooster should be smaller, altough i dont know the difference between the outremer knights and latin knights (yet). I would like to
see some dismounted order knights too.

The issue is i think the large availability of knights in castles because one can build chapter houses in every castle and town. If the techtree would allow to chose between order knights and outremer then it would be a good idea. And in settlements also a choice between hospitaller and other higher tier units.

What i would do also is, make knights of Jerusalem only available in Jerusalem.

Cheers.

[republic_bohemia]

"What i would do also is, make knights of Jerusalem only available in Jerusalem."

Hmm I guess yes,but look it up before you make a change like that.

Regards.John

[Fenix_120]

Their is also the fact that their were Gentry Men-At-Arms who are not Knights in title but are equiped with the same weapons and armor and are also trained the same way...


So even though an army might have only 200 real Knights it might have 8000 men-at-arms...