Question about cataphracts

[avesta]

I've just started playing MP again after a long while and I find myself using the seleucids a lot since they can match up against rome. A few questions I have about their cataphracts.

1) Are they better than praetorian cav toe to toe? Catas cost about 100 denarii more, and have 7 attack, 23 defense, 9 charge whilst praetorian cav have 11 attack, 22 defense, and 6 charge (correct?). I think the catas though, have the 'effective against armor' stat (when using alt click in melee?). Does this raise their attack value? If so, by how much?

2) Does the charge value get negated when you alt-click your charge order? Should I be normal-clicking to charge, and then alt clicking once they are in melee?

3) Are the upgrades for the praetorians more expensive, or catas. Or are they the same?

[Romulus_A]

1) It's really only a matter of preference, while it's true that the catraphacts are stronger, the praetorians are much more manueverable.

I'm not sure of the exact stats, but I believe that catraphacts have a higher defense than the praetorians. Just as well, I'm pretty sure that you are correct, and the Selucids do have the same mace as Parthia that is more effective against armor (when you press alt+attack).

2) Yes, charging with your spears first is the better option, as it does give more charge damage, when you get into the heat of the battle, then use your maces to wreak havoc.

3) I believe they are the same.

[Prince_of_Macedon]

1) Are they better than praetorian cav toe to toe?

In a "toe-to-toe" fight, the Praetorians will get demolished by Cataphracts.

[avesta]

Romulus, thanks for the answers.

Prince of Macedon, I've noticed that they do get demolished by catas, but I'd like to know why? Catas only have 1 higher defense value, so it can't be that.
And praetorians have 4 higher attack. Is it the charge value that makes the difference, or does the mace give catas more attack?

[Prince_of_Macedon]

Romulus, thanks for the answers.

Prince of Macedon, I've noticed that they do get demolished by catas, but I'd like to know why? Catas only have 1 higher defense value, so it can't be that.
And praetorians have 4 higher attack. Is it the charge value that makes the difference, or does the mace give catas more attack?

The armor-piercing Mace is what gives a Cataphract a huge edge against another Heavy Cavalry unit.

[florin80]

And their horses have bigger mass iirc. Plus, they have better charge which gives them an initial advantage and then in melee they have better armour defence which counts for attacks from any side unlike the shield.

[Romulus_A]

It's true, the mace can crush opposition, which is why Parthian and Selucid catraphacts are so much stronger than the Pontic catraphacts (who have broad swords).

[Xavier Dragnesi]

The only really bad thing about cataphracts are that they are pretty slow for cavalry.

[_TubbZ_]

They aren't cavalry they are tanks!!! if you use them as normal cav in MP you will get them tired out too quickly or suffer unneeded casulties while running around.

About the charge then alt right click its fine to do if you have the time, but if you don't then just straight Alt right. Plus they can take loses when changing weapons too which is annoying. If you are charging a heavily armoured foe the alt right could be more effective with the enemy armour stat with mace.

IMO the difference is negligable and the time lost re assigning attack could mean you miss something out. Rarely will Catas lose a battle vs armoured foes, if using sele i would get the catas in and concentrate on not getting your infantry killed due to being alot weaker and hit when you were busy doing something else.

[Prince_of_Macedon]

I love Cataphracts for the reason that although they're extremely strong, the game designers actually balanced them out by slapping them with a heavy price tag (and almost no stamina either).

[Xavier Dragnesi]

They get tired really quickly yeah. Must be the strain of all that armour...

[avesta]

The armor-piercing Mace is what gives a Cataphract a huge edge against another Heavy Cavalry unit.

I don't think it's the mace, I think it's the higher armor defence which gives them the edge, as florin pointed out here:

in melee they have better armour defence which counts for attacks from any side unlike the shield.

This is the key I think. 3 extra charge, and 1 extra total defence don't make a big difference.

Is there a place to get a complete breakdown off all units' defence stats? It might be useful since total defence can be misleading.

[Prince_of_Macedon]

I don't think it's the mace, I think it's the higher armor defence which gives them the edge, as florin pointed out here:

As someone already pointed out, Praetorians have a defense of 22 (which is just a 1-point difference than a Seleucid Cataphract which has a defense rating of 23).

As I mentioned already, the Cataphract will tear apart a Praetorian in a toe-to-toe fight. Their defense ratings are the same, but their attack stats are not. The mace attack is armored piercing which is the crucial tool separating a Catapract from a Praetorian.

[atraps]

catas can stand toe to toe against urbans

as for praetorian cavalry...catas eat them for breakfast

[Selifator]

Take some equites as a light snack afterwards.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

Plus some light lancers and militia cavalry

[Selifator]

Instant teeth-cleaning sticks for the horses.

[daxypoo]

I've just started playing MP again after a long while and I find myself using the seleucids a lot since they can match up against rome. A few questions I have about their cataphracts.

1) Are they better than praetorian cav toe to toe? Catas cost about 100 denarii more, and have 7 attack, 23 defense, 9 charge whilst praetorian cav have 11 attack, 22 defense, and 6 charge (correct?). I think the catas though, have the 'effective against armor' stat (when using alt click in melee?). Does this raise their attack value? If so, by how much?

2) Does the charge value get negated when you alt-click your charge order? Should I be normal-clicking to charge, and then alt clicking once they are in melee?

3) Are the upgrades for the praetorians more expensive, or catas. Or are they the same?

they are better than prat cav if they actually fight...
they have an awesome mace attack if they get to use it...
they are also decent at charging a roman line to keep pila from hitting your pikes that should be right behind as you reel around for a charge

[avesta]

they are also decent at charging a roman line to keep pila from hitting your pikes that should be right behind as you reel around for a charge

I usually use a pike unit in loose fomation in front of my silver shields to absorb the pila. I never charge a roman line head on with cavalry but maybe I should try it given that the catas are pretty tough. The key is, you gotta be able to hit the roman line with your inf before they can regroup from the cav charge allowing them to throw the pila. On HUGE setting, it's more difficult and more skill and tactics are required. But that's what makes it so great.

[DeerHunter]

The Reason why Catas in a toe to toe fight with praetorian cavalry will win easily is simple, its because there armour piercing mace halfs any armoured unit defence so if a unit as a defence of 22 then the units defence will only be a 11