per marius formation

[candle_86]

Ok Ive been doing some reading on how the pre marius legions where arranged. With Veltites in front, Hesati's behind them, principes, behind the hesati and triarii at the back with the general. Does this actully work tactically in a battle, i never actully tried it, but it seems like the hesati can weaken the enemy, the principes can kill most if not all, and if for some reason the principes rout or the line breaks the triarii can go in and clean up, but does this work like its supposed to?

[Selifator]

Mostly not, your line is prone to be outflanked and if you widen it you will have a too thin line. It's not quite effective.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

Also remember that if you want to replicate the Roman line, then you need to keep gaps in between the units e.g:

H H H H H
P P P P P P
T T T T T

There's not much you can do to stop outflanking, that's one of the system's main weaknesses. You can only put some cavalry on the wings and hope that they call hold out against the outflankers

[Aristarchus]

Who cares about outflanking with principes in the second rank? Let 'em try.

I part from the classic formation in a couple ways. I always put velites in the second rank interspersed with the principes. That way they don't get in the way of the quick charge of your front ranks in whatever direction they need to go. And then the velites don't waste their missiles at the beginning. I find them most helpful to support a front where an unexpected enemy charges or where a solid enemy needs to be ground down. Also, as for the last row of triarii, I never manage to get enough cities pre-Marian that can build them, so I have only a few in the army if any.

[fourganger]

Who cares about outflanking with principes in the second rank? Let 'em try.

If you front line is outflanked then you'll suffer large casualties among them, which is not great.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

Plus, if you use the formation that I have written above, the troops are still pretty compact, and it would be very hard for them to be outflanked by cavalry and other types of infantry.

[Aristarchus]

Plus, if you use the formation that I have written above, the troops are still pretty compact, and it would be very hard for them to be outflanked by cavalry and other types of infantry.

Exactly. The compact Roman formation can swivel and make its own powerful front wherever it chooses. Getting outflanked is really more a problem for the lone enemy units dumb enough to come charging ahead of their lines at the Romans.

[Selifator]

You will always have to be carefull that your front line doesn't get to many casualties, thats where the timing of your reinforcements comes in, or your campaign will stop at the first battle.
If your front line is at half or lower strenght the entire formation is screwed.

[GreatOne]

Actually in SPQR making gaps between your units is pretty good, but always make sure you don't have guard mode on because your units will act weird, and not spread out.
When the enemies get winded or are about to get winded ,while they are facing hastati, send principes, and when they are tired or very tired, just use triarii to either outflank em, or support the line.

Ofcourse this would require very good cavalry force so that you can stop enemies from outflanking you, or at least hold them in place while triarii get to them.

[Aristarchus]

An interesting note about spacing between the cohorts: the Romans evidently learned in the Punic Wars to fight in units with corridors in between to allow elephants to charge through the gaps when they went berserk. I haven't noticed in RTW that the elephants prefer the spaces; they seem to plow into the troops anyway.

[thijsco123]

Hi all!
I have a question about the triarii, it's a whole other subject but i'm still going to ask it. Is there a way to recruit triarii in the "post-marius" period?
If so, could you please tell me how this is possible?

[One-X]

good point about the corridors.

Also, in RTW elephants are easily killed by a phalanx formation, however, the thick hide of an elephant made it relatively immune to spears.

Interestingly, in the Punic Wars, experienced Roman soldiers would try to cut off an elephants trunk; it induced immediate panic and sent it a'mok.

[Lord Thesaurian]

of course it does. The pre-marian armies were designed to be arranged this way and usually suck in a ful-scale battle if they are not, especially against eastern and greek armies. In may ways, the pre-marian system was better than the post.

[morteduzionism]

First, let me say that I don't play Vanilla. I play a mod that lowers the Roman unit stats...

Ok Ive been doing some reading on how the pre marius legions where arranged. With Veltites in front, Hesati's behind them, principes, behind the hesati and triarii at the back with the general.

Don't forget the alaes. The Roman army wasn't composed totally of "Romans."

There's a guide associated with the mod ExRM (Extended Realism Mod) by...Candel's...or something...you should find that...it gives you the information on how to field a historically accurate army using the RTW game engine.

Does this actully work tactically in a battle, i never actully tried it, but it seems like the hesati can weaken the enemy, the principes can kill most if not all, and if for some reason the principes rout or the line breaks the triarii can go in and clean up, but does this work like its supposed to?

Yes.

Remember I said I play a mod that lowers the Roman unit stats, I use this formation exclusively and can usually crush larger forces without having to alter the formation much.

Here's what it looks like:


------V_IS
---H_H_IP_IP
IH_P_P_P_P_IH
V------T------IS
HC/Tr--G-----E

Key
V = Velites
IS = Italic Skirmishers
H = Hastati
IP = Italic Pedites aka Italian Swordsmen
IH = Italic Hoplite aka Italian Spearmen (three deep on guard mode)
P = Principe (I use four instead of two)
T = Triarii (three deep on guard mode)
HC = heavy cavalry
E = Equites
Tr = tribune (younger family member serving as cavalry commander)
G = General

Points
-there're no gaps/spaces between units...
-I never make my lines less than three deep
-when attacking I don't leave the skirmishers in front; I group them with the units behind the IH
-group the entire army together like this and march them into battle

Tactics
>reserves:when defending move the triarii back a few steps prior to engaging; move one unit of principes back to replace the triarii and to serve as a reserve; lengthen the remaining three units of principes to cover the three points where the first line units shoulders meet (1st point - between the two units of hastati; 2nd - between hastati/Italic Pedits; 3rd - between the Italic Pedites)

>preventing being flanked: move the IH's up to the flanks of the first line, effectively lengthing your line, and have them hold the line; any units managing to get around these units can be dealt with by: a) the two units of skirmishers (or if you're mean you could use something like Bastarne) b) the unit of principes on that side c) the reserve unit of principes d) your Equites e) your general f) the triarii

>elephants: group all four units of skirmishers together in order to kill them; best scenario is to use your Equites to tease the elephant into chasing it back to where your skirmishers are; if/when an elephant even looks at your main army (which should be grouped together)...run! Select the entire army, except for skirmishers, and have them fall back to create more space between them and the elephant(s). Under no circumstances should heavy infantry (hastati/principe/triarii/alaes) engage in melee with an elephant! Simply have the army fall back and attack the elephant with the skirmishers. If you do it right the skirmishers will be able to kill the elephant(s) in the space created without suffering any casualties and your army can then march back into position over the elephants dead bodies

>engagements or wearing down the enemy:
-TRY TO GET AS CLOSE TO THE ENEMY AS POSSIBLE PRIOR TO ATTACKING/CHARGING; you dont' want to order your hastati, etc attacking from too far away...they'll get winded by the time they get there and suffer more casualties

Once you're in position and have engaged their front line with yours...here's where it gets tricky

As Selifator said, timing is important.

Not only do you not want your front ranks to suffer too many casualties you don't want them getting too tired either...before charging your principes.

Note: while the first rank is engaged you could a) have principes firing-at-will b) remember your skirmishers? they could be firing into the enemy front lines from behind the principes (remember when attacking they're not in front) c) you could use your skirmishers to flank the enemy and fire into their backs d) flank with cavalry and have them charge into the backs of the enemies e) have skirmishers flank the enemy and attack in melee from the back...

Did you forget timing was important? No? Good! Once you think your first line has done enough order the principe to attack directly through the first line!

Once the principe reach the front and begin to be engaged withdraw/reform your first line behind the now engaged principes. Make them run.

The reason timing is so important is that if/when you withdraw your first line it means they turn their backs on the enemy and...well...you know...so you have to time the switch so that the principe are there when the first line turns to leave

You really don't want to leave the first line engaged for the whole battle because they'll get "exhausted" and suffer even more casualties than if you would have just withdrew them.

The enemy, who by this time should be "exhausted" too will now be fighting "fresh" and "eager" principes.

Also, during the battle I assume you would've charged the enemies flank (your left/their right) with your HC unit...by the time the Principe are engaged the battle should be drawing to a close...the cavalry charges on their right should've shattered it and provide you with the opportunity to roll up their whole army...

Last points: VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT!

1. All of this also depends on who you're fighting. I'd hope you'd not try to have green unblooded troops trying to hold a battle line against phalanx armies...

2. All of this works better if your general isn't green also...

3. The fastest most effective way to win a battle is to kill the enemy general. Especially when fighting phalanx armies! They're tough and have high defensive stats...you will not win a straight up slugging match with one of them. From the start of the battle find the commander and try your hardest to kill him! Use your tribune + HC unit to flank the enemy hunt down the enemy and get him...the enemy will rout soon after...
_ _ _ _ _ _
...this is vanilla, right!? Don't enemy generals usually charge right into the closest spear unit?

Regardless, the formation works and is highly effective and flexible...good luck!

[SonOfAlexander]

Ok Ive been doing some reading on how the pre marius legions where arranged. With Veltites in front, Hesati's behind them, principes, behind the hesati and triarii at the back with the general. Does this actully work tactically in a battle, i never actully tried it, but it seems like the hesati can weaken the enemy, the principes can kill most if not all, and if for some reason the principes rout or the line breaks the triarii can go in and clean up, but does this work like its supposed to?

No, it doesnt really work on RTW though it is useful for city battles...
This is a picture of my Saxons using 3 refreshed lines of attack - for more detail i have a thread on it on battle planning

[aznflea]

i think the hastati are more cost efficient than principes. you are paying extra 200 gold and 100 extra gold every turn for principes for a mere 2 armor increase. principes have higher morale than hastati tho, its good to replace the hastati later on with the principes when your economy becomes powerful

what i do i make 2 lines of hastati/principes no distinction between them and have spear troops at the wings to protect against cavalry. i envelope the enemy ranks with the troops on the wings of the second line and the line in the middle of the secondline is areserve.

except for the first 2 battles against pyrhus, this tactic should work until the marian reforms against every faction.

[darthbane7]

I find the strategy fairly effective against infantry based factions, take a look:
http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/40478