Question regarding traits and their anti-traits.

[Wheem]

If a family member has a trait that has not reached its no-going-back level, and some action happens that gives them a "rank" in that trait's anti-trait, shouldn't it decrease the rank of the trait that's already present?

I'm pretty sure that was the case in Rome, but that doesn't seem to be true for Medieval 2. An incident happened in my current game as Venice that got me thinking.

My faction's heir was sitting in Zagreb; I specifically moved him there because there has been a French diplomat and HRE Princess nearby for quite a few turns. I was hoping that they would try to bribe him, and he'd get the "Upright" or "Loyal" trait(s) that would cause his "Corrupt" trait to go away. Instead, the corruption got worse on the first turn he was there.

Since there were no brothel line of buildings or merchant banks present in the settlement, and my finances aren't really topping ~25k at the beginning of a turn, much less at the end, it seems that the only way for the Corruption trait to worsen would be the random self perpetuation event firing.

So, I decided to experiment a little with some saving and re-loading: Every time I ended the turn (even changing what units I trained and such, to reset the random seed), he went from Dubious to Underhanded; except for when I moved him out of the settlement and away from those characters that were attempting bribes on my city (due to traits gained by the previous governor a few turns earlier, I'm positive that's what the HRE Princess is trying to do). I even went so far as exiting the game, commenting out the self perpetuation event, and reloading to try some more; the results did not change.

So, it seems to me that instead of gaining the Upright trait for refusing a bribe, it's actually worsening his corruption trait instead; which really doesn't make any sense. Is this simply a fluke? Or is it a bug of some kind? Like I said, I'm almost certain that gaining ranks in an anti-trait in Rome (whether positive or negative) would decrease the trait that was already present (as long as it wasn't at its no-going-back level).

[Ruprecht]

If a family member has a trait that has not reached its no-going-back level, and some action happens that gives them a "rank" in that trait's anti-trait, shouldn't it decrease the rank of the trait that's already present?

I thought that would be the case aslo, but i have noticed even if the character does get the anti-trait, nothing gets negated from the opposite trait.

But i wasen't aware there was a level to a trait that cannot be reduced once reached a certain level, and i'm not sure that is the case.

For instance if a princess gets Pretentious 3, you can simply neutralize it by giving this : give_trait this Pretentious 4 , which is the level above the maximum trait level.

I never had a trait i coulden't get rid of or neutralize, so if your general has Corrupt trait, use : give_trait this Corrupt 4 [ where the maximum is 3 ]

There are certain traits that reach high levels and must be brought down in increments by using the same trait in succession. or atleast i have found as i don't have enough knowledge about all the trait levels.

Hope that was of some help.

[Wheem]

I thought that would be the case aslo, but i have noticed even if the character does get the anti-trait, nothing gets negated from the opposite trait.

Hm, I haven't noticed any family member possessing a trait and its anti-trait at the same time, but I suppose it may be possible.

If my memory is correct, a trait would simply disappear in Rome:TW, if you received a level in the anti-trait. If you received another level in that anti-trait, then you would gain it, whether it was positive or negative didn't matter.

However, in my case with Venice, it seemed that my heir's refusal of a bribe actually caused an increase in the Corruption trait, without gaining the Upright or Loyalty traits. This happened every single time I tested it, except when I moved him out of the settlement the AI was attempting to bribe (even when I commented out the "Self Perpetuating" event for Corruption in the text file). This really seems like some kind of bug to me. Rather than getting -1 Corruption (from gaining points in Upright), it's actually giving me +1 Corruption. Looking through the text file, there was no other possible way he could have worsened Corruption, once I commented out the self perpetuation.

But i wasen't aware there was a level to a trait that cannot be reduced once reached a certain level, and i'm not sure that is the case.

Many traits have a "no going back" level, according to the text file. For the Corruption trait, this is the second level (which is the one I get after bribe refusal).

Thanks for mentioning the give_trait thing; I've never really played around with the console before. I was hoping to get rid of his Corruption the "proper" way, though, which is why I moved him to Zagreb in the first place.

[Ruprecht]

Yeah i see your point, that the trait corrupt for example is locked once reached level 2 and cannot be naturally reduced.

I think the traits, especially in SS 5.1 get a bit silly at times, i realize that it was supposed to make the game more realistic, but there are sacrafices that need to be made to keep gameplay balanced and actually fit in the guidelines of a computer game and not real life.

For instance the Troops despondent trait i find most anoying, as when my armies conquer a distant land, they get a severe morale reduction, and need to be taken back to thier native lands. if i kept doing this to maintain the troops morale, they would never actually fight battles, but spend the rest of the game traveling back and forward.

Don't get me wrong i think they did a good job with SS traits/ancillaries, but i think they went a bit overboard.

But yeah i really hate to use the console, and i despise cheaters, but i think of it as more of a correction to balance things out, so the game isen't totally irratating to play. otherwise i would be spening most of my time trying to get rid of bad traits and it would turn into Micro-management hell.

Hope you get it all sorted out, and if ya have any questions about the console or traits/ancillaries just fire away.

[Harry Lime]

Moved to Mod Workshop > Text editing and scripting

[Wheem]

I used the console command; give_trait "Simon Selvo" Corrupt 4, and it did indeed remove the Corrupt trait entirely. Upon ending the turn and refusing the AI's Bribe, he gained a rank in the Loyal trait (which is the second anti-trait, along with Upright, of Corrupt).

However, when I reloaded the game (where he still had the Corrupt trait) and used; give_trait "Simon Selvo" Loyal 1 he did not gain the loyalty. Instead, it boosted his Corrupt trait up to level 2 (called "Underhanded").

When I used the command to give him "Upright 1" once, there was no change to his traits. When I did it a second time, the Corrupt trait again worsened to Underhanded.

I tried the give_trait command on another character with the Lewd trait (at the first level - "Crude"). When I tried giving him 1 level in Prim (which is the anti-trait), it instead progressed the Lewd one.

However, using give_trait StrategyDread on a character that had some levels in StrategyChivalry seemed to work perfectly fine, and reduced the Chivalry trait just like it should have.

So...yea, I'd say there was some buggy stuff with traits. It makes no sense to have a bribe refusal make a character more corrupt. There's already a no going back level in place, so it seems obvious that it was intended that one would be able to reverse some traits; but it seems to be completely impossible without using the console to manually remove certain traits first, which completely removes the "natural" progression and regression that the game should have.

One question regarding giving traits with the console; when you set a trait to an impossible number, is the trait really gone? Or does it simply become somehow hidden, and still provide the negative effects? Since I received the Loyalty line for bribe refusal after setting Corrupt to 4, it seems as though it's gone. Just a strange way of doing it I guess; I'd have expected setting it to 0 would be the way to remove a trait

Moved to Mod Workshop > Text editing and scripting

That would be a more appropriate place indeed, thanks

[Ruprecht]

I used the console command; give_trait "Simon Selvo" Corrupt 4, and it did indeed remove the Corrupt trait entirely. Upon ending the turn and refusing the AI's Bribe, he gained a rank in the Loyal trait (which is the second anti-trait, along with Upright, of Corrupt).

However, when I reloaded the game (where he still had the Corrupt trait) and used; give_trait "Simon Selvo" Loyal 1 he did not gain the loyalty. Instead, it boosted his Corrupt trait up to level 2 (called "Underhanded").

When I used the command to give him "Upright 1" once, there was no change to his traits. When I did it a second time, the Corrupt trait again worsened to Underhanded.

I tried the give_trait command on another character with the Lewd trait (at the first level - "Crude"). When I tried giving him 1 level in Prim (which is the anti-trait), it instead progressed the Lewd one.

However, using give_trait StrategyDread on a character that had some levels in StrategyChivalry seemed to work perfectly fine, and reduced the Chivalry trait just like it should have.

So...yea, I'd say there was some buggy stuff with traits. It makes no sense to have a bribe refusal make a character more corrupt. There's already a no going back level in place, so it seems obvious that it was intended that one would be able to reverse some traits; but it seems to be completely impossible without using the console to manually remove certain traits first, which completely removes the "natural" progression and regression that the game should have.

One question regarding giving traits with the console; when you set a trait to an impossible number, is the trait really gone? Or does it simply become somehow hidden, and still provide the negative effects? Since I received the Loyalty line for bribe refusal after setting Corrupt to 4, it seems as though it's gone. Just a strange way of doing it I guess; I'd have expected setting it to 0 would be the way to remove a trait

Yeah i think there is some bugs with the traits system, much like your experience, i had a general and although he was doing everything the chivalrous way he got dread instead of chivalry.

I really need to test more traits and see what effects they have on each other, but i am certain that if you neutralize a trait and it is not visible on the general's scroll then it has gone to a neutral state, as there hasen't been any evidence that it stays there, or is hidden.

I tried giving the value 0 to traits but this has no effect, so i usually find the maximum value of a trait and add 1 level to it. i'm going to be messing around with traits tonight, if i find anything usefull ill'e drop back in.

[clandestino]

I have a question that is not quite related with this topic. I hade noticed that in M II TW governors don't have management/acumen categorie in their profiles which I found wery usefull in Rome and M I. How could I wiew this skils in M II?

[Ruprecht]

I have a question that is not quite related with this topic. I hade noticed that in M II TW governors don't have management/acumen categorie in their profiles which I found wery usefull in Rome and M I. How could I wiew this skils in M II?

I coulden't answer that, as i never played RTW, but i'm sure somebody here knows what you speak of.

[clandestino]

I gues you played M I TW, there you have '' acumen'' category in caracter's scrol ( symbolised with feder ) which show his administrative/economy skills. Bigger governors acumen-more profits from province.

[Snipafist]

I've found that completely removing the "no going back" level from all traits helps get around these weird situations most of the time. Making sure that anti-traits are mutual helps too (sometimes trait A lists B as an anti-trait, but B does not list A as an anti-trait, which is all kinds of confusing).

[Wheem]

I've found that completely removing the "no going back" level from all traits helps get around these weird situations most of the time.

Aha! That seems to have corrected things.

Thanks a lot for the info, the bug with traits getting better/worse when the opposite should have happened was driving me crazy.