Cavalry fight unmounted?

[AqD]

I understand that cavalry in classica era are very weak in close combat due to lack of stirrup, but aren't they supposed to fight unmounted when the situation isn't suitable for horses (there are many evidences during the whole history of cavalry)? Certainly RTW cannot make "unmounted" cavalry, but you can assume that, members of the heavy cavalry units such as Hetairoi, couldn't possibly get beaten on foot by a bunch of cheap warband barbarians or peltasts - which means they should have higher defense skills in game, to reflect their combat capability when on foot - not realistic but merely a workaround.

Anyway, the idea is not well-tested, though I already added some defense bonus into my mini-mod. Any comments/suggestions on this?
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[Pat89]

Actually I think there is some sense in what you say..
So cavalry should have a higher attack to simulate the fact that they did get of their horses. I too think it isn't realistic that such a unit would lose of a bunch of peltasts. Warbands is something different though as they are with almost four times as many as the Hetairoi and simply can surround (eng? surround sound ) them.

[Korlon]

But then you'd have to simulate their lowered speed of movement on the battlefield. It just isn't possible to unmount with the system we have. I think the thing we have right now is just fine. If cavalry gets bogged down, even by light skirmishers (peltasts are at least a bit armored, something like a lighter version of a thureophoroi) they should get quite a few casualties. Regardless of their armor values, without the stirrup they just can't keep their balance. Once they're down, a little dagger can do quite a bit of damage.

[AqD]

No. I mean that, if they see a situation in which they may be broght down easily, they should fight unmounted themselves (rather than being dragged down during battle), and thus the lack of stirrup wouldn't be a problem anymore.

And it's not a few casuality I'm talking about - in vanilla RTR I could easily kill hetairoi by peltasts or velites, or just any cheap AOR units.
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[Korlon]

That's probably just due to the stupidity of the AI. I'm sure you can easily kill some peltasts using hetairoi if you were using them.

[AqD]

Only if you charge them and cause them to break and run. If they don't rout, you'd have a big problem.
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[Korlon]

That's why you charge, break off, and charge again. Repeat as necessary.

[AqD]

No you don't understand what I said.

I mean that heavy cavalry should not suck so much when they're forced to engage in melee combat, because in reality they would fight unmounted, and these men are usually the best of the army. It has nothing to do with how players use the cavalry.
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[Aliksander]

No you don't understand what I said.

I mean that heavy cavalry should not suck so much when they're forced to engage in melee combat, because in reality they would fight unmounted, and these men are usually the best of the army. It has nothing to do with how players use the cavalry.

I understand what you are saying but you have to think about the situation you present. So we have 40 cavalry members surrounded by 100-120 men. You want it to be represented that they get off their horses to fight these men (even though being on a horse, even in melee, should be an advantage) but what do those 100 or so enemies do? Wait patiently while they dismount? No, they drag him down as soon as he starts to get off his horse and stab him to death. If you don't want you cavalry to die getting bogged down in melee, the most logical and realistic answer is to not let them get bogged down in melee.

[Korlon]

Well, it's just the restrictions of the engine then. Use infantry instead. If heavy cavalry do unmount, they won't be able to catch up to the lighter skirmishers. They won't have time to unmount when they're already fighting either.

[AqD]

Well you misunderstood again.

Cavalry would be forced to fight unmounted only when they are caught and have to defend themselves - not when they're trying to catch and kill enemy (cavalry are not as same as mounted infantry). Fighting unmounted is, of course, impossible to be implemented due to the limitation of RTW engine, but the effects could still be emulated by adding defense skills or other methods, so they can hold until the reinforcement comes, or beat weak enemy units by themselves.
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[Korlon]

Sorry for misunderstanding so much, but just exactly are cavalry supposed to get caught? They're supposed to be the speediest troops available. I realize they might be caught sometimes, but within the game, it's not as such. I don't think any sort of effect could be added without unbalancing the cavalry. If you add defense skills, it means they'll be stronger even if they were supposed to be mounted, which is what they usually were.

[QuintusSertorius]

I understand that cavalry in classica era are very weak in close combat due to lack of stirrup

Uh, nope, that's not the reason why at all. While they weren't as stable in the saddle as they might have been, that wasn't the reason for poor quality cavalry.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Really Hetairoi get owned by light troops in close combat? Sincerely, i've never seen heavy cavalry get owned in this way! They usualluy suffer great losses, but not against velites or similar light troops...

[AqD]

Really Hetairoi get owned by light troops in close combat? Sincerely, i've never seen heavy cavalry get owned in this way! They usualluy suffer great losses, but not against velites or similar light troops...

Because most of time a player would use them to charge and break enemy light troops, but not if the light troops charge your cavalry first.

Regarding the "great losses", it's another problem of low cavalry defense - some of them would die on the impact of charge, even if they charge from rear or flank.
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[AqD]

Uh, nope, that's not the reason why at all. While they weren't as stable in the saddle as they might have been, that wasn't the reason for poor quality cavalry.

But they cannot use swords/spears well for close combat I think, since it's very easy for them to fall from the horse.

BTW you know any other reason for poor quality cavalry in classical era??

Sorry for misunderstanding so much, but just exactly are cavalry supposed to get caught? They're supposed to be the speediest troops available. I realize they might be caught sometimes, but within the game, it's not as such.

It happens very often here when my cavalry charge into a group of AI units - because Sinuhet's add-on makes AI to use rather good/weird formation, in which one unit always cover another and there is no clear "line" at all, and the formation works perfectly unless AI takes offensive.

I don't think any sort of effect could be added without unbalancing the cavalry. If you add defense skills, it means they'll be stronger even if they were supposed to be mounted, which is what they usually were.

Yes, but have you noticed how weak cavalry's defense is? Hetairoi has 17 - lower than the defense of militia hoplite or the cheapst gaul/german infantry.
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[Korlon]

Well, even if horses were much more massive than regular men, if charged into a well formed formation of men, even if it's the rear, some horses should die from it. It's just a matter of physics. With a good formation, the horses will be slowing down extremely fast after hitting, causing the force exacted on the horse, and the men, to be enormous.

[AqD]

Well, even if horses were much more massive than regular men, if charged into a well formed formation of men, even if it's the rear, some horses should die from it. It's just a matter of physics. With a good formation, the horses will be slowing down extremely fast after hitting, causing the force exacted on the horse, and the men, to be enormous.

Yes, that's why they should and would fight unmounted, if they're unable to retreat immediately after charge. But my point is that they shouldn't be very weak when they fight unmounted, since members of heavy cavalry units are usually the best in any army. In RTR they'd be cut to pieces in a few seconds - which would not happen in reality because they'd choose to defend themselves on foot in such a situation.
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[QuintusSertorius]

Forget physics, a horse won't charge into a fixed spear, and it won't step on ground it is unsure of (like those containing shouting men moving around a lot). They're panicky herbivores who's evolutionary response to danger is run away...very fast.

[AqD]

This has been discussed in EB's forums and other places. While horses naturally wouldn't do these suicidal things, they can still be trained to. What matters is if the enemy who hold spear would rout first - or you and your horse would die (and the riders may not be willing to suicide anyway)
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