Rome's Marius

[atraps]

i really think that only rome should be affected by the reform

but i see that all factions are affected by this, which is unfair if the Roman faction is destroyed b4 the reform happens (happened in my carthage campaign)

im no historian but i dont think the whole world waz affected by the Marius Reform (only rome waz affected)
after all this mod doesnt focus on the romans anymore

my point is, Only the Roman units and bodyguard should be changed by the reform.

wat do u guys have to say :hmmm:

[TM Is Back]

I say that every faction can trigger the reforms like in vanilla.

[CaesarVincens]

Nope, only Roman factions can trigger the reforms, vanilla or otherwise, it's hard-coded. However, the idea behind expanding the reforms to affect everyone, is that the game covers almost 300 years, in that time many advances were made in warfare. And since this game doesn't have any sort of tech tree or graded reforms, using the one reform is all we have available to represent every factions advances.

[atraps]

Nope, only Roman factions can trigger the reforms, vanilla or otherwise, it's hard-coded.

Are you 100% sure this is hardcoded? Take a look at one of your quotes.

I have found that the Indie Greeks cannot trigger the Reforms, the Roman Rebels can however.

How come the Indie Greeks cannot trigger the reform anymore, they are the Brutii in disguise, and in vanilla the Brutii can trigger it.

If its possible to stop the Brutii from triggering the reform then i think its possible to be able to make other factions able to trigger it.

[Balikedes]

I think the hardcoded part is "where" the reforms begin, sure the Brutii won't trigger reforms anymore...but that's just because they typically don't build Palaces where the Romans can, on Italian soil. I think there's only a few locations that can trigger it...though I can't remember which ones.

[Unknown Soldier]

Er guys
Reforms rules
- the culture of the faction needs to be roman
- the faction needs to build an imperial palace in an italian province - marked by a specific hidden resource
- when these conditions are met then the reform is triggered, these conditions have to be true and this is what is hard coded.

If all of the roman culture factions are wiped out it never happens.

The Indie Greeks now have a greek culture hence can no longer trigger the event.

[CaesarVincens]

It is exactly as Unknown Soldier said,
The Indie Greeks while being the romans_brutii internally are no longer of the Roman culture, it is my understanding that the prefix "roman" is also necessary, so that one cannot just make the Gauls Roman and let them trigger the reforms. However, if you can prove me wrong, I will be glad of the information, as it would open up many possibilities.

[Archbaker]

i really think that only rome should be affected by the reform

but i see that all factions are affected by this, which is unfair if the Roman faction is destroyed b4 the reform happens (happened in my carthage campaign)

If all Roman culture factions are destroyed before the reforms, there will be no reforms for any factions. This will only be unfair if the reform itself is a balancing factor, e.g. if there is some faction that is underpowered before the reform and more balanced after.
However, even this scenario is fairly pointless since the factions are not supposed to be equally strong. Ponts and Saba are not meant to be as likely to dominate the map as Egypt or Rome.

im no historian but i dont think the whole world waz affected by the Marius Reform (only rome waz affected)

Military reforms always affect both sides. In the case of the Marian reforms, it led to other armies copying the legionary unit and move toward more professional standing armies.
However, the reforms in XGM are not meant to represent only the reforms started by G. Marius; they represent all the military reforms that took place after his time as consul, including many nations adopting heavier armour and restructuring of the Hellenic and Carthaginic military.

after all this mod doesnt focus on the romans anymore

Which could also be an argument for extending the reform to all factions.

[atraps]

Which could also be an argument for extending the reform to all factions.

I would love for that to happen, but if the romans are destroyed b4 the reform happens it would really screw up the game.

Thats why we need to think of something.:hmmm:

So from my understanding to trigger the reform this has to happen-
A Roman cultured imperial palace must be built in a Italian province marked with the hidden resource.

it is my understanding that the prefix "roman" is also necessary, so that one cannot just make the Gauls Roman and let them trigger the reforms.

CaesarVincens, I dont really understand what you mean by this. What does this prefix roman mean?

Here is my idea-
We swap the greek and roman cultures, in other words we give all the greek factions the roman culture and we give the romans the greek culture. Then we make the greek culture look roman and make the roman culture look greek.
Problems with this idea-
1. The romans will no longer b able to trigger the reform. (which atm affects them the most)
2.If the romans grow to strong the greek factions will never b able to build a huge city in Italy. (maybe its possible to give other provinces that hidden resource)
3.My goal is to make all the factions able to trigger the reform not just the greeks. (but at least we will have 5 factions that are able to trigger it instead of only 2 factions)

Anymore ideas?

[CaesarVincens]

So from my understanding to trigger the reform this has to happen-A Roman cultured imperial palace must be built in a Italian province marked with the hidden resource.

That's right, there is a hidden resource "italy" which identifies provinces able to trigger the reform, so provinces outside Italy be allowed to trigger the reforms, some mods add cities such as Carthage or Athens.

CaesarVincens, I dont really understand what you mean by this. What does this prefix roman mean?

There are four roman factions, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, and romans_senate. That is prefix I am referring to.

Here is my idea-
We swap the greek and roman cultures, in other words we give all the greek factions the roman culture and we give the romans the greek culture. Then we make the greek culture look roman and make the roman culture look greek.
Problems with this idea-
1. The romans will no longer b able to trigger the reform. (which atm affects them the most)
2.If the romans grow to strong the greek factions will never b able to build a huge city in Italy. (maybe its possible to give other provinces that hidden resource)
3.My goal is to make all the factions able to trigger the reform not just the greeks. (but at least we will have 5 factions that are able to trigger it instead of only 2 factions)

I think there is a maximum limit on the number of Roman cultured factions, which should be four.

As to your points,
1. Yes, that would be the biggest problem, considering that the Marian Reform event was designed to let the Romans change their army composition mid campaign, which didn't happen so completely with any other faction shown, in this time period.
2. That is not a problem really, if we changed the Greeks to be the ones to trigger the reforms, just change the cities with the italy resource to Greek ones.
3. Unfortunately, that is not possible with RTW.

[Archbaker]

With such a long reply, I should probably point out that I am not one of the people behind this mod. I am just another enthusiast putting his thoughts on the table.

I would love for that to happen, but if the romans are destroyed b4 the reform happens it would really screw up the game.

It would produce a campaign in which Carthage and the Eastern Factions do not get legionaries, and in which bodyguard units are never upgraded.
If the Post-Marian project is added to regular XGM it will also mean that a lot of other factions do not get the changes or upgrades that they would otherwise get.

However, since Rome only very rarely gets destroyed before the faction can complete an imperial palace in Italy (but outside Roma), I almost tend to think of this as a feature rather than a problem.

To me, it would be an interesting change to play an occasional campaign with only classical units.

Thats why we need to think of something.:hmmm:

But we also do not want it to be too easy to trigger the reforms, so that they occur too early.

So from my understanding to trigger the reform this has to happen-
A Roman cultured imperial palace must be built in a Italian province marked with the hidden resource.

Yes. This currently means inside Italy, but not in Roma.

And as the other posters have pointed out, this basically means that we can designate four factions that share a culture to be 'Romans' and designate any given provinces to be part of 'Italy' for the purposes of
triggering this.

Now, let us look at some of the permutations,

-If we keep the Romans as 'Romans' and Italy as 'Italy' we will see early reforms and only rarely see a game in which there is no reform at all.

-If we keep the Romans as 'Romans' and move 'Italy' somewhere else, reforms will not happen as often and most likely happen later. However, if the provinces that the Romans are expected to build a palace in already contain a large or huge city, reforms might sometimes happen quite fast; I am assuming that conquering an imperial palace is just as good as building one.

-If we keep the Romans as 'Romans' and extend the size of Italy, there will be a theoretical increase in the chance for a reform. This increase can be infinitesimally small if the extra provinces are poor, or quite large if they are rich and easy to conquer.

-If we make four Greek factions 'Roman' and keep 'Italy' in Italy, reforms will occur later and more rarely unless one or more Greek factions goes straight for Italy. However, the Greek factions inside modern Greece usually have to defeat each other before they can attack anyone else, Pontus is a very small faction that can not usually take on the Romans, and the Seleucid Empire is very far away from Italy. Egyps and Thrace do not share a culture with the other Greek factions.

- If we make four of the Greek factions 'Roman' and move 'Italy' to modern-day Greece, reforms will be about as likely to occur as they are now. I seem to think the Greek peninsula has more heavily populated provinces and generates more income in the early game than the Italian peninsula does, so reforms will probably occur earlier. However, if Rome turns its attention to the east early on, reforms may never occur.

- If we make four Greek factions 'Roman' and move 'Italy' to some area the chosen factions are likely to be able to conquer, the reforms will be a little less likely to occur and a little slower to happen than in the above scenario, again depending on the nature of the provinces.

- If we extend 'Italy' to cover a large area and make four of the Greek factions 'Roman', reforms are very likely to occur; I cannot remember a campaign in which no Greek faction completed a huge city. However, reforms could easily occur so soon that the player never got a pre-reform army going.

[Unknown Soldier]

...I am assuming that conquering an imperial palace is just as good as building one.

They have to build it, conquest does not count nor having one at the start.

I do not however know about damaged and repaired

[Webba]

It just occurred to me that those two unreachable regions on the map might be useful for this as well. Would it be possible to make the rebels a Roman faction, designate one of the unreachable regions in Africa or Arabia as Italy then arrange the settlement there to produce an imperial palace at roughly the historical date of the reforms?

That way it would still happen, at the appropriate time, regardless of Rome's fortunes but Roman players still have the potential to trigger it sooner, if they're good enough.

Only strange part is the possibility of some factions imitating legionaries that never existed. Could be somewhat explained by updating Italy's AOR troops at the time of the reforms as well. I noticed, with some disappointment, that they currently don't. And I was holding on to Tarentum solely for the purpose of raising levied legionaries too. Next game is definitely going to be Seleucidic in flavour.

[Unknown Soldier]

I think the 4 faction roman culture limit exists in all versions of RTW.

e.g. BI has West, East and two rebel factions.

Maybe we should experiment with this and try 5 to see what happens. (CTD probably).

[atraps]

I think the 4 faction roman culture limit exists in all versions of RTW.

e.g. BI has West, East and two rebel factions.

Maybe we should experiment with this and try 5 to see what happens. (CTD probably).

I didnt know that is the case. This limits us even more, but like Unknown Soldier said i think we should try 5 and see wat happens. Thx for informing me

There are four roman factions, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, and romans_senate. That is prefix I am referring to.

Thx CaesarVincens, for explaining that

Nice points Archbaker

As for the romans getting destroyed ive seen it happen without any help from me. This is what happened-
1.First of all, the romans couldnt kick the indie greeks out of italy and lost that major battle against pyrrhus in the begging.
2. With the romans big army pretty much destroyed the roman(rebels) came and layed siege to one of their towns and took it (with the help of the indie greeks laying siege to another town)
3.So far the romans lost 2 towns. (this doesnt look to good for the romans)
I was carthage btw, but i didnt do anything to Rome, and usually if the AI controls carthage they land full stacks in Italy which Rome couldnt handle in this scenario.

My point is The Roman faction is destroyable even without any help from the human player. Thats why i think destroying rome shouldnt hinder the reform.

Question- If the Roman Imperial Palace is the magic which triggers the reform, is it possible to give it to other factions without the roman culture?

[Knight of Judgment]

perhaps the other faction will be able to change their generals by built a level five palace in one of their starting region

[Unknown Soldier]

Thats not a bad idea to make either or both the unreachable regions roman rebel -

that should cause the reform to trigger at some point in the game.

It would also give them an income boost as well, and they could never be destroyed - meaning if loyalty is on the Romans will always suffer revolts.

[Dom9127]

Good ideas, but Dime already has a solution lined up which will make it so that each faction can trigger there own reform. Though I think he is still working on it.

[atraps]

Good ideas, but Dime already has a solution lined up which will make it so that each faction can trigger there own reform. Though I think he is still working on it.

no way! i want to hear that from Dime